thbe

I agree with you, even you think you agree with Grog, what is not the case.

The OP did not write about getting his money back. He complained, that he did not get his seat reservation back.

thbe

No, it is not. A confidence trick doesn't mean, that the buyer can can be confidence about whatever and as long he wants. It means, that the seller let the buyer in the believe of comprehensible expectations, which he will not deliver. I agree, that getting the money back, if you don' get exactly seats you have a reservation for, can be a comprehensible expectations.

But LH prevents the passenger from that false expectation by stating explicitly what he will get.

If you try to make the seat reservation, the second sentence and written in bold is: "Details and conditions on seat reservations can be found here."

And after you click on "here", the first sentence you see is: "Please note that a confirmed seat reservation does not give you any legal right to a specific seat, only to a seat in your chosen category, e.g. window or aisle."

Under "Refunds of paid-for seat reservations" you find:
"Seat reservations that have already been paid for are refundable in the following cases:
- A schedule change by Lufthansa, e.g. a change to the aircraft type deployed, means that no equivalent seat can be made available to you on the new flight.
- An unforeseen disruption, such as bad weather, means you have to be rebooked on another flight on which there is no equivalent seat available for you.
- You cancel your flight and your ticket is refundable."

If the passenger is still confidence about getting the seat numbers guaranteed or getting his money back, if he doesn't get them, it's not a scam or a trick.

That is not hiding something or written something towards expectations in fine print. That is the clear communication of a rule - which is unfavourable for the passenger. Just having an unfavourable rule doesn't mean scam.

The airline business is full of real scams. I can give you examples:
- EY wrote on his website, that every business seat has access to the aisle, but they used planes operated by HM which have a 2-2-2 configuration.
- EY advertised a bed equipment for business class for weeks, but never delivered that anywhere.

thbe

I get reseated in less than 5% of my flights. I don't now the overall statistics, but I assume that you get the seats you have a reservation for in 90% or more of your flights.

So we are talking about exceptions. There are a lot of other exceptions. The flight is late. The flight is canceled. The flight has really bad turbulences. Your baggage is the last one on the belt. Etc. etc.

Can you show me any advertisement of an airline, that shows that kind of reality? Does any advertisement of any company in any industry shows what happened, if something goes wrong? Do you really think, that a nice picture means, that it is ok, not to read what you really buy? And as I write before, it is definitely not in the fine print.

What do you want LH to change? To write more explicit, what you will get? Really? Or pictures that even cover the minority of incidents, if something has gone wrong?

Grog

Of course, the picture should cover reality. Or fantasy. But not an ambiguous mixture of both. If it's a picture of a talking cat, the viewer knows it is fantasy. If it's a picture of two people sitting next to each other on a plane and the advert involves buying seats "for you and your fellow travelers in advance", the viewer is falsely led to believe it is truth.

With respect, I know what a confidence trick is, after all, I'm the one who explained it here first.

Actually, I agree with purch. And it would seem that purch agrees with me. So...what don't you agree with? That I'm calling the setup a scam? One doesn't have the privilege of denying the existence of one of the accepted definitions of a word.

One point that you seem unwilling to address: there was no change of equipment, i.e., no apparent operational reason for denying the OP his original seats. To not make every attempt to re-seat the OP as originally reserved and purchased, as well as separating the two from the same PNR, adds insult to injury here.

thbe

I like your vision of a better future. UA has to advertise: "We are bad at planing - and if we make a mistake, we try to let pur customers kill by the police". Or US carriers: "Our domestic first is an old-fashioned business class." Facebook has to write everywhere: "Most of our profiles are faked, the persons behind the real ones are boring."

And I would really love to see fast food restaurants to use real pictures of their products.

Why do you call something a confidence trick then, what is obviously no confidence trick?

No, you agreed with the OP. The OP wanted to get his seat reservations back. Purch said, that he understand, that it is sometimes not possible to get the seat reservations back, but that the carrier should refund the money for the seat reservations. That is a disagreement with the OP and while you were agreeing with the OP, it is a disagreement with Purch.

Where do you have that information from? Maybe there were two changes of equipment (first to another, second back to the old one). Maybe there were two seat reservations at the same time in different systems. Or were you just guessing?

purch

We can haggle all day about the technical definition of a scam or trick. For me it's definitely a scam when the company doesn't make the customer whole, after something happened which isn't the customers fault.

In the case of the OP, if LH could have fixed his seat reservations, then they should have. I agree 100% with the frustration of the OP. But even in the more general case where LH can't fix the problem, they should give the refund as a gesture of goodwill.

But how much goodwill does LH care about from pax who are paying for seat reservations. They have to be low yielding pax so what's the incentive to keep them happy...

Grog

Because it is, but I'm weary of explaining English definitions to you. Bathe in the satisfaction that you can browbeat someone into submission by splitting hairs into nanoportions and arguing semantics.

LH's seat reservation purchase arrangement remains a scam in my mind and apparently (I would say, obviously) in at least few others' minds. And that's not God-Mode speak. It's substantiated by the sentiments of other posters in this thread.

thbe

The main difference between our views is, that you gave the OP morale support, so he feels better now, but next time he will do wrong again.

I thought, it is a better a idea to show him, that he was wrong and how he can do better next time.

He obviously was open-minded for your approach only - and that before someone answered to his post. So it was a waste of time anyway.

txviking

thbe: Way to blame the victim. You sound like a corporate lawyer: "Look, it says right here that we can screw you over. You agreed to it in this one-sided contract."

thbe

Victim? Really?

The OP ignored the reality, that seat reservations can change and still doesn't understand, that this can happen.

The OP also ignored the no refund rule, he agreed when signing the contract, even the airline declared that explicitly.

The OP talked to the service center in a inappropriate way.

Everyone is free to think and say, that LH's offer for seat reservations is one-sided. Actually I think that too. In that case, don't buy it. It would be a trick, a scam, a screw over, if LH hid that rules. But the rules are declared open and easy to understand for everyone.

There are a lot of offers in this world, which are one-sided from my point of view. As long as you know (or have to know) what you get, they are just bad offers, not a trick, scam or screw over.

htb

What about trying to seat people together when seat reservations "had" to be changed -- and if it's not possible, refund the money?

Your argument basically is "it's OK to scam people because we put it in the fine print". It works once(*). Then people just distrust you.

HTB.

(*) In the US it might work once. In other jurisdictions it could end badly for LH because one-sided contracts are tightly controlled (remember: why would you pay money for reserving a middle seat). There was no reason at all not to re-accommodate two seats next to each other when the OP called the service center: two seats next to each other were available one row in front of the originally reserved seats, but LH is taking money from someone claiming that person just wanted to sit in a middle seat...

Joshua

There's an awful lot of excuses here for LH moving people with confirmed seat assignments around. There is no good reason to move passengers in a single PNR in the a middle + window or aisle seat, and they should be a lot clearer about this when selling ASRs.

Ultimately, it's a very Spirit-like experience, which begs the question of why not just fly a bargain basement airline if chances are you will end up sitting in a middle seat by yourself anyway.

thbe

Every airline tries to avoid to reseat passengers and every airline tries to reseat passengers, if necessary, in a good way.

To get restated is an exception. To get reseated in a bad way is even more rarely.

But sometimes it happens.

The OP did not pay for specific seats. He paid for the type of seat. If he doesn't get the type of seat, of course he must get back his money. But that is not the case.

It's not in the fine print. It's stated explicitly, clearly and easily to understand.

As quoted before:
"Please note that a confirmed seat reservation does not give you any legal right to a specific seat, only to a seat in your chosen category, e.g. window or aisle."

I really don't know, how LH could state it more explicitly, clearly and easily.

If you make a booking for USD 1,000 or more, it could be a good idea to read, what you are paying for.

htb

Do you have a point here? I think I'm missing it.

So what about trying to seat people together when seat reservations "had" to be changed -- and if it's not possible, refund the money? Why isn't LH doing this? Because it happens rarely, according to you? Not a good reason, I would say.

Sorry, no. LH shouldn't state it more explicitly, they should simply try to offer what people expect: seats next to each other -- and if not possible, refund the money. What is so difficult about this? That would be a sound business practice. Selling someone a guaranteed middle seat is a scam.

HTB.

thbe

Ah, you think, people shouldn't get what they were offered, they should get what they expect even if they are ignoring to read the offer.

What planet do you live on?