SN submits to BDS and terminates [and later reinstates] Israeli vendor
Aug 25, 2016, 5:51 am
#16
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1. Historically incorrect
2. Legally incorrect
3. "Never will be legal Israeli territory" -
This is an opinion based on nothing other than your fervent desire. Future negotiations (once palestinian arabs decide to really negotiate) will determine which land remains Israeli and which will be given to the arabs. Until this happens neither you nor anyone else can determine what will and what will not remain Israeli territory.
4. "they employ local labour as this is by far cheaper than Israeli labour"
Unfortunately this again is based on uninformed opinion alone.
Palestinian arabs are entitled to Israeli minimum wage (currently around 5,000 shekels a month) when working in Judea and Samaria. Some have successfully sued their employers when they were paid less...
Regardless, you are pleased at the SN decision and will continue to fly them.
I view it as shameful decision and will not, and I believe that many others will think the same.
2. Legally incorrect
3. "Never will be legal Israeli territory" -
This is an opinion based on nothing other than your fervent desire. Future negotiations (once palestinian arabs decide to really negotiate) will determine which land remains Israeli and which will be given to the arabs. Until this happens neither you nor anyone else can determine what will and what will not remain Israeli territory.
4. "they employ local labour as this is by far cheaper than Israeli labour"
Unfortunately this again is based on uninformed opinion alone.
Palestinian arabs are entitled to Israeli minimum wage (currently around 5,000 shekels a month) when working in Judea and Samaria. Some have successfully sued their employers when they were paid less...
Regardless, you are pleased at the SN decision and will continue to fly them.
I view it as shameful decision and will not, and I believe that many others will think the same.
But your statement is certainly historically incorrect. The region never legally belonged to Israel founded after WWII.
It is and was Jordanian territory. And it is not up to decide for Israel whether it will be "given" to the "Arabs". The land is owned by an Arab family holding proper title even confirmed by the Israeli Supreme Court.
Different from obviously you I have not anyhow personal interest and see it from a legal and law of the nations perspective.
It is amazing that some posters always become personal or irrational when it comes to evaluating Israeli action by international standards. Criticising Israel is as justified as criticising Palestine if one to the two is not playing according to international standards.
And blaming an airline as "shame" just because it refrains from taking any position in such conflict is nothing but unfair.
Aug 25, 2016, 5:57 am
#17
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So your focus is not purchasing from occupied territories. Fair enough that is your world view. Would you purchase goods from non-occupying despotic regimes? (one could argue that if you would you are a hypocrite)
You like SN's decision because it fits your world view against purchasing from occupied territories. Would you understand others might have a world view of not purchasing from countries that don't have freedom and democracy? or that execute adulterers? Promote female genital mutilation?
How about countries that armed police force women to remove their clothing of choice on beaches?
Let me put it this way there are no international sanctions in place against purchasing goods from the occupied west bank (there are organisations pushing for that, mostly actually pushing for sanctions against ALL Israeli goods. Which completely changes the balance of this ban, but I digress)
So SN is just making up the rules as it goes focusing on one worldview. And that should not be done by an airline (yes they should adhere to proper international sanctions)
This should have been their response "we buy good food from many sources as long as there are no international sanctions in place against that, We respect any customer who chooses not to eat that".
I may not like LH flying to Iran, but since the sanctions have been rescinded it is not their job to play politics and not fly there.
You like SN's decision because it fits your world view against purchasing from occupied territories. Would you understand others might have a world view of not purchasing from countries that don't have freedom and democracy? or that execute adulterers? Promote female genital mutilation?
How about countries that armed police force women to remove their clothing of choice on beaches?
Let me put it this way there are no international sanctions in place against purchasing goods from the occupied west bank (there are organisations pushing for that, mostly actually pushing for sanctions against ALL Israeli goods. Which completely changes the balance of this ban, but I digress)
So SN is just making up the rules as it goes focusing on one worldview. And that should not be done by an airline (yes they should adhere to proper international sanctions)
This should have been their response "we buy good food from many sources as long as there are no international sanctions in place against that, We respect any customer who chooses not to eat that".
I may not like LH flying to Iran, but since the sanctions have been rescinded it is not their job to play politics and not fly there.
Aug 25, 2016, 6:07 am
#18
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We are moving towards OMNI but you misunderstand one thing. It is not about countries in general, it is about this specific business or this specific industrial park. The Israeli company is working on seized land (from a private owner) in a region illegally occupied by a foreign nation (Israel). I have no problems with any Israeli products produced in Israel but do not support somebody specificly playing against the rules.
Aug 25, 2016, 6:15 am
#19
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Again, you are asking SN to cherry pick and sanction your worldview of choice. And I realise you feel strongly about it. That is not a game an airline should play. If the government of Belgium tells its businesses to boycott this company/region they should follow that, not the airline making the decision.
Aug 25, 2016, 6:22 am
#20
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Sorry, but there is no Boycott. This term is an typical Israeli approach: as soon as someone does not explicitly support Israel on all counts, Israel talks about a boycott. There are trillions of deserts on this globe and as an airline I have no need to serve any politically problematic desert. An airline is a business and not a political, Jewish or Muslim organisation. And this is neither about deserts nor anyhow about religion, but about title and territory.
There is no boycott and yet you support SN doing a boycott (because to you title and territory is that important)
Do you support SN boycotting products from KSA (because to some people businesses in a land that treats women so badly is that important)?
Aug 25, 2016, 6:23 am
#21
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HTB.
Aug 25, 2016, 6:38 am
#22
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Why should that be? Corporates (should) have corporate values, and I see nothing wrong with one of them being not to buy products being produced in disputed territories by the occupying force. Why should they have to wait for the government to tell them what to do? Followed by not buying products where child labour is involved.
HTB.
HTB.
I really understand why people feel what they feel about this Halva product. (Israel being a full democracy has many Israelis boycotting it, it's allowed to do what you wish at a personal level)
I can tell you that the organisations pushing for this ban (BDS) are very upfront that they want to ban all Israeli products (and they are very unsuccessful). The real motivation is much deeper and sinister than what you of flying lawyer care about.
SN should not get involved (at minimum they should have an open corporate values committee where they discuss Israel occupation, the total lack of freedom in Arab countries, child labour and myriad of other important issues. And publicly clarify their agenda on purchasing products and why.
Would you accept their corporate values to decline flying to Iran because they feel they are not doing enough about demilitarising their nuclear arsenal?
Aug 25, 2016, 7:11 am
#23
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You still don't get it. I would not intentionally buy products involving child labour but I buy products from India. I would not intentionally buy products involving slave prisoners labour but I buy products from the US. And I would not intentionally buy products produced by the occupiers in an occupied country but I generally buy products from Israel and Russia.
And I would not generally boycott the US because they executed minors. I do not generally boycott Germany because it has a dark history and I do not generally boycott Israel or Palestine because they still do not tolerate each other. But I would not buy products from a Palestine company supporting terrorism and I would not buy products from an Israeli company produced on seized private land in an occupied country.
And I would not generally boycott the US because they executed minors. I do not generally boycott Germany because it has a dark history and I do not generally boycott Israel or Palestine because they still do not tolerate each other. But I would not buy products from a Palestine company supporting terrorism and I would not buy products from an Israeli company produced on seized private land in an occupied country.
Aug 25, 2016, 7:31 am
#24
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You still don't get it. I would not intentionally buy products involving child labour but I buy products from India. I would not intentionally buy products involving slave prisoners labour but I buy products from the US. And I would not intentionally buy products produced by the occupiers in an occupied country but I generally buy products from Israel and Russia.
And I would not generally boycott the US because they executed minors. I do not generally boycott Germany because it has a dark history and I do not generally boycott Israel or Palestine because they still do not tolerate each other. But I would not buy products from a Palestine company supporting terrorism and I would not buy products from an Israeli company produced on seized private land in an occupied country.
And I would not generally boycott the US because they executed minors. I do not generally boycott Germany because it has a dark history and I do not generally boycott Israel or Palestine because they still do not tolerate each other. But I would not buy products from a Palestine company supporting terrorism and I would not buy products from an Israeli company produced on seized private land in an occupied country.
) - nothing to add.
Aug 25, 2016, 8:10 am
#25
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You still don't get it. I would not intentionally buy products involving child labour but I buy products from India. I would not intentionally buy products involving slave prisoners labour but I buy products from the US. And I would not intentionally buy products produced by the occupiers in an occupied country but I generally buy products from Israel and Russia.
And I would not generally boycott the US because they executed minors. I do not generally boycott Germany because it has a dark history and I do not generally boycott Israel or Palestine because they still do not tolerate each other. But I would not buy products from a Palestine company supporting terrorism and I would not buy products from an Israeli company produced on seized private land in an occupied country.
And I would not generally boycott the US because they executed minors. I do not generally boycott Germany because it has a dark history and I do not generally boycott Israel or Palestine because they still do not tolerate each other. But I would not buy products from a Palestine company supporting terrorism and I would not buy products from an Israeli company produced on seized private land in an occupied country.
And specifically is SN implementing all these limitations based on its corporate values or is this Israeli company being specially picked out? (and if so do you agree with THAT)
The thing with BDS you have to understand is the movement is clearly not about occupied territories but all of Israel "the BDS movement calls for a boycott of Israel’s entire regime of oppression" as such, while I understand your opinion it is a dangerous slippery slope.
Aug 25, 2016, 8:27 am
#26
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Well, it's not just BDS that calls for boycott of products produced in occupied Palestine, it's the EU and the UN in fact as well that are VERY unhappy with the current situation of Israel holding so much area that doesn't belong to them.
In the EU, while you're allowed to sell such products, you've to clearly mark them - I'm not so sure if single-unit packs would still be properly marked as produced under occupation. For me, if I see an Israeli product, I'll refrain from buying it unless I can be sure it has been produced NOT in the occupied areas.
With that EU rule, they actually support Israeli business by clearly marking products made in Israel, and products made in occupied areas.
Before, they both had the "Israel" stamp, making it MUCH easier to call for a boycott on those. Now, unless you don't want to buy Israeli products generally, you can easily know which products were produced in occupied areas, and which were produced in Israel.
In the EU, while you're allowed to sell such products, you've to clearly mark them - I'm not so sure if single-unit packs would still be properly marked as produced under occupation. For me, if I see an Israeli product, I'll refrain from buying it unless I can be sure it has been produced NOT in the occupied areas.
With that EU rule, they actually support Israeli business by clearly marking products made in Israel, and products made in occupied areas.
Before, they both had the "Israel" stamp, making it MUCH easier to call for a boycott on those. Now, unless you don't want to buy Israeli products generally, you can easily know which products were produced in occupied areas, and which were produced in Israel.
Aug 25, 2016, 8:37 am
#27
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How is that not a slipper slope?
Aug 25, 2016, 8:42 am
#28
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Well, it's not just BDS that calls for boycott of products produced in occupied Palestine, it's the EU and the UN in fact as well that are VERY unhappy with the current situation of Israel holding so much area that doesn't belong to them.
In the EU, while you're allowed to sell such products, you've to clearly mark them - I'm not so sure if single-unit packs would still be properly marked as produced under occupation. For me, if I see an Israeli product, I'll refrain from buying it unless I can be sure it has been produced NOT in the occupied areas.
With that EU rule, they actually support Israeli business by clearly marking products made in Israel, and products made in occupied areas.
Before, they both had the "Israel" stamp, making it MUCH easier to call for a boycott on those. Now, unless you don't want to buy Israeli products generally, you can easily know which products were produced in occupied areas, and which were produced in Israel.
In the EU, while you're allowed to sell such products, you've to clearly mark them - I'm not so sure if single-unit packs would still be properly marked as produced under occupation. For me, if I see an Israeli product, I'll refrain from buying it unless I can be sure it has been produced NOT in the occupied areas.
With that EU rule, they actually support Israeli business by clearly marking products made in Israel, and products made in occupied areas.
Before, they both had the "Israel" stamp, making it MUCH easier to call for a boycott on those. Now, unless you don't want to buy Israeli products generally, you can easily know which products were produced in occupied areas, and which were produced in Israel.
Let's focus on EU. I agree the EU "is VERY unhappy with the current situation of Israel holding so much area that doesn't belong to them" and also has rules on labelling WB products (though it does not cover packaged foodstuff like this Halva) but does not boycott them.
But I am sure the EU is very unhappy with human rights issues in some factories in say Yemen.
So is SN using what the "EU does not like" as its guidance for boycotting products or is it singling out Israel?
This is the point I am making the whole time. Israel is being singled out (and if not SN should share its list of boycotted products and prove it)
PS you say "if I see an Israeli product, I'll refrain from buying it unless I can be sure it has been produced NOT in the occupied areas." Do you do the same for products made in say Lebanon unless you are sure they come from a company that equally hires Shia's and gays?
Aug 25, 2016, 8:56 am
#29
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SN as an international corporation, if they have a human rights purchasing policy and implementing it I salute them. If they are singling out Israel only that is horrific.
Aug 25, 2016, 9:23 am
#30
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You didn't answer my question. Where do you draw the line for your personal moral compass, going for bad to good? Do you make any exceptions?