What would my refund be?
Jul 29, 2015, 12:41 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,552
What would my refund be?
I want to book a round trip (ex-UK) with Lufthansa, probably in the economy 'classic' category (was a bit surprised to see the 3 types of economy now!). It's for four people but it is possible one of us will have to cancel close to the date. Now, I know it is not refundable but at the same time, taxes always are. However, the list of taxes/fees/etc. is quite long, so I am curious if anyone knows about how much I could expect back? Also couldn't find anything about any cancellation fees...
Here's the breakdown of the fare:
Ticket price: 123 GBP
Taxes/fees/surcharges: 78.88 GBP
...which Lufthansa breaks down as:
Thanks for the help.
Here's the breakdown of the fare:
Ticket price: 123 GBP
Taxes/fees/surcharges: 78.88 GBP
...which Lufthansa breaks down as:
nternational/Domestic Surcharge 14.40 GBP
Air Passenger Duty (APD) 13.00 GBP
Passenger Service Charge 16.68 GBP
Passenger Service Charge - Intl 30.20 GBP
Tax description D3AP 0.10 GBP
Airport Tax 4.50 GBP
Those service charges sound like they'd not be part of the refund, and if there's a chunky cancellation fee, it'd probably eat up the little bit that remains!Air Passenger Duty (APD) 13.00 GBP
Passenger Service Charge 16.68 GBP
Passenger Service Charge - Intl 30.20 GBP
Tax description D3AP 0.10 GBP
Airport Tax 4.50 GBP
Thanks for the help.
Jul 30, 2015, 1:50 am
#2
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,152
The 'International/domestic surcharge' formerly known as fuel surcharge is not refundable on non-refundable fares. European fares usually have this penalty clause:
Note the US/ZP/XF tax being non-refundable too. I don't know if it applies to your case either.
Code:
ANY TIME
TICKET IS NON-REFUNDABLE.
WAIVED FOR DEATH OF PASSENGER OR FAMILY MEMBER.
NOTE -
WAIVERS MUST BE EVIDENCED BY DEATH CERTIFICATE.
----
REFUND RULES APPLY PER PRICING UNIT.
IN CASE OF FARE COMBINATION THE MOST RESTRICTIVE
CANCELLATION CONDITION APPLIES FOR THE ENTIRE
PAGE 1/ 5
>m
PRICING UNIT.
----
FULL REFUND PERMITTED BEFORE DEPARTURE IN CASE OF
REJECTION OF VISA. EMBASSY STATEMENT REQUIRED.
----
REFUND OF UNUSED TAXES PERMITTED.
UNLESS APPLICABLE OW/RT FARE PLUS TAXES FOR ACTUAL
TRAVEL IS HIGHER THAN WHOLE ORIGINAL TICKET.
IN THIS CASE NO TAX OR FEE REFUND WILL BE
PERMITTED.
----
THE FOLLOWING TAXES ARE NONREFUNDABLE IN CASE OF
NONREFUNDABLE FARES - US TAX/ZP TAX/XF TAX
----
FOR NON REFUNDABLE TICKETS THE YQ/YR
INTERNATIONAL/DOMESTIC SURCHARGE WILL NOT BE
REFUNDED.
----
THE OPTIONAL PAYMENT CHARGE IS NON-REFUNDABLE.
CHANGES
PAGE 2/ 5
>m
ANY TIME
CHARGE EUR 65.00 FOR REISSUE/REVALIDATION.
WAIVED FOR DEATH OF PASSENGER OR FAMILY MEMBER.
NOTE -
WAIVERS MUST BE EVIDENCED BY DEATH CERTIFICATE.
-----
CHANGES PERMITTED TO ANY
BUZ/CLS/FLX/NN/NC/NF/RC/RF/RN/77 OR FF TYPE FARE
FOR CARRIER LH/OS/LX
FOR OTHER CARRIERS THERE IS NO FARE TYPE
RESTRICTION.
-----
RULES FOR CHANGES APPLY BY FARE
COMPONENT/DIRECTION. IN CASE OF FARE COMBINATION
CHARGE THE HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED FARE
COMPONENTS.
-------
CHANGE FEE APPLIES FOR EVERY SINGLE CLOSED
REISSUE/REVALIDATION/REBOOKING TRANSACTION.
--------
PAGE 3/ 5
>m
CHILD DISCOUNT DOES NOT APPLY.
INFANT WITHOUT SEAT FREE OF CHARGE.
---------
CHANGES NOT PERMITTED IN CASE OF NO SHOW. REFER
TO REFUND SECTION.
---------
FOR CHANGES BEFORE DEPARTURE ALL CONDITIONS OF
THE NEW FARE MUST BE COMPLIED WITH INCLUDING
ADVANCE PURCHASE. IN CASE OF CHANGES AFTER
DEPARTURE ADVANCE PURCHASE CAN BE IGNORED.
----------
IN CASE OF UPGRADING TO A HIGHER FARE CHARGE THE
APPLICABLE CHANGE FEE AND COLLECT THE FARE
DIFFERENCE. IN CASE OF DOWNGRADING TO A LOWER FARE
CHARGE THE APPLICABLE CHANGE FEE -NO CREDIT OF THE
RESIDUAL AMOUNT WILL BE MADE.
----------
THE ORIGINAL NON-REFUNDABLE AMOUNT REMAINS NON-
REFUNDABLE.
----------
REROUTING PERMITTED PROVIDED ORIGIN AND
PAGE 4/ 5
>m
DESTINATION OF THE FARE COMPONENT REMAINS THE
SAME.
--------
REVALIDATION/REISSUE AND MCO ISSUANCE MUST BE
MADE WITHIN 24 HOURS AFTER CHANGE OF RESERVATION
BUT NOT LATER THAN DEPARTURE OF THE ORIGINAL
FLIGHT BEING CHANGED. IF NOT DONE WITHIN 24 HOURS
TICKET WILL ONLY BE VALID FOR REFUND OR NOT
APPICABLE AT ALL.
----------
COMPLETELY UNUSED TICKETS CANNOT BE CHANGED INTO A
TICKET WHERE ORIGINAL ISSUING CARRIER IS NO LONGER
INCLUDED IN THE ITINERARY. TICKET IS THEN ONLY BE
VALID FOR REFUND. PLS REFER TO REFUND SECTION IF
APPLICABLE.
Jul 30, 2015, 2:17 am
#3
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SFO
Programs: AA, AS, AC, Hilton, Hyatt, IHG
Posts: 198
Guess you won't get any residual value after initiating the refund. As has been said already, most of the surcharges are non-refundable and the remaining taxes are less than the EUR 100 refund handling fee.
Jul 30, 2015, 4:04 am
#5
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
Well if you want to fight it - German law says you have to get 95% of the price back when you cancel....and recently many cases by different courts have followed that rule also.
So it seems to be the trend that all fares will be refundable - if you fight for it....
AS LH is a German company the flight does not have to start in Germany as the rule is valid for flights starting in Germany or for German companies...
http://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Stornier...e13231776.html
So it seems to be the trend that all fares will be refundable - if you fight for it....
AS LH is a German company the flight does not have to start in Germany as the rule is valid for flights starting in Germany or for German companies...
http://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Stornier...e13231776.html
Jul 30, 2015, 4:57 am
#6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,967
@Germanfflyer
I think although you might be right that there is a chance you could get back your money, I think the biggest problem is that you have to take LH to court for this. It is not easy and straight forward.
And I think at some point they will reconsider that decision swinging back in the other direction as it works the same way with almost any pre-paid product.
Try to get a refund for a unrefundable hotel reserveration? Or a all inclusive vacation package? Or a car rental? Or ticket for the movies...
Sure, most probably at some point you might get the money back if you find a favorable judge which would follow the argument that they could resell the same thing to another client, but hopefully there are judges around who will see it is part of the pricing structure that you get a cheap deal by taking the risk to loose all (or use a travel insurance).
This whole discussion in Germany is rather ridiculous. I think they should rather make sure the rules are clear and understandable so the customer knows exactly what to expect which especially if OTAs are involved is not always the case.
I think although you might be right that there is a chance you could get back your money, I think the biggest problem is that you have to take LH to court for this. It is not easy and straight forward.
And I think at some point they will reconsider that decision swinging back in the other direction as it works the same way with almost any pre-paid product.
Try to get a refund for a unrefundable hotel reserveration? Or a all inclusive vacation package? Or a car rental? Or ticket for the movies...
Sure, most probably at some point you might get the money back if you find a favorable judge which would follow the argument that they could resell the same thing to another client, but hopefully there are judges around who will see it is part of the pricing structure that you get a cheap deal by taking the risk to loose all (or use a travel insurance).
This whole discussion in Germany is rather ridiculous. I think they should rather make sure the rules are clear and understandable so the customer knows exactly what to expect which especially if OTAs are involved is not always the case.
Jul 30, 2015, 5:05 am
#7
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: DXB / KUO
Programs: AY, SQ, EK
Posts: 858
@Germanfflyer
I think although you might be right that there is a chance you could get back your money, I think the biggest problem is that you have to take LH to court for this. It is not easy and straight forward.
And I think at some point they will reconsider that decision swinging back in the other direction as it works the same way with almost any pre-paid product.
Try to get a refund for a unrefundable hotel reserveration? Or a all inclusive vacation package? Or a car rental? Or ticket for the movies...
Sure, most probably at some point you might get the money back if you find a favorable judge which would follow the argument that they could resell the same thing to another client, but hopefully there are judges around who will see it is part of the pricing structure that you get a cheap deal by taking the risk to loose all (or use a travel insurance).
This whole discussion in Germany is rather ridiculous. I think they should rather make sure the rules are clear and understandable so the customer knows exactly what to expect which especially if OTAs are involved is not always the case.
I think although you might be right that there is a chance you could get back your money, I think the biggest problem is that you have to take LH to court for this. It is not easy and straight forward.
And I think at some point they will reconsider that decision swinging back in the other direction as it works the same way with almost any pre-paid product.
Try to get a refund for a unrefundable hotel reserveration? Or a all inclusive vacation package? Or a car rental? Or ticket for the movies...
Sure, most probably at some point you might get the money back if you find a favorable judge which would follow the argument that they could resell the same thing to another client, but hopefully there are judges around who will see it is part of the pricing structure that you get a cheap deal by taking the risk to loose all (or use a travel insurance).
This whole discussion in Germany is rather ridiculous. I think they should rather make sure the rules are clear and understandable so the customer knows exactly what to expect which especially if OTAs are involved is not always the case.
The fare in this case has got to be below cost already.
Jul 30, 2015, 5:12 am
#8
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
@Germanfflyer
Try to get a refund for a unrefundable hotel reserveration? Or a all inclusive vacation package? Or a car rental? Or ticket for the movies...
Sure, most probably at some point you might get the money back if you find a favourable judge which would follow the argument that they could resell the same thing to another client, but hopefully there are judges around who will see it is part of the pricing structure that you get a cheap deal by taking the risk to loose all (or use a travel insurance).
Try to get a refund for a unrefundable hotel reserveration? Or a all inclusive vacation package? Or a car rental? Or ticket for the movies...
Sure, most probably at some point you might get the money back if you find a favourable judge which would follow the argument that they could resell the same thing to another client, but hopefully there are judges around who will see it is part of the pricing structure that you get a cheap deal by taking the risk to loose all (or use a travel insurance).
As for airlines + LH at this point it does not even depend on the judge any-more as the law is very clear on it and there have by now been many, many cases with all the same outcome please note the linked article is from early 2014 as with EU261 all the standard cases are won in court as the rules set by the EU courts are giving the new rules that prevail....same here just not that many exceptions but a rather strait forward case. There are already law firms that will take these cases for free same as the EU261 cases.
Just not so many law-firms as it is a unique German law thing only for LH and all flights departing Germany....
So whether you agree or not - it is the law and not taking what is yours by law is your own personal decision. I will always take the money when I can - as companies have not given me that much for free to out-way what I would lose by not maxing out refunds that I can get...
PS: Cancelling a package vacation - they have the same "problems" and the tour operators are already slowly adapting to it....
Last edited by Germanfflyer; Jul 30, 2015 at 5:20 am
Jul 30, 2015, 5:52 am
#9
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: DXB / KUO
Programs: AY, SQ, EK
Posts: 858
Well hotels have a different law situation so do rental car companies....so we are looking at very different law situations.
As for airlines + LH at this point it does not even depend on the judge any-more as the law is very clear on it and there have by now been many, many cases with all the same outcome please note the linked article is from early 2014 as with EU261 all the standard cases are won in court as the rules set by the EU courts are giving the new rules that prevail....same here just not that many exceptions but a rather strait forward case. There are already law firms that will take these cases for free same as the EU261 cases.
Just not so many law-firms as it is a unique German law thing only for LH and all flights departing Germany....
So whether you agree or not - it is the law and not taking what is yours by law is your own personal decision. I will always take the money when I can - as companies have not given me that much for free to out-way what I would lose by not maxing out refunds that I can get...
PS: Cancelling a package vacation - they have the same "problems" and the tour operators are already slowly adapting to it....
As for airlines + LH at this point it does not even depend on the judge any-more as the law is very clear on it and there have by now been many, many cases with all the same outcome please note the linked article is from early 2014 as with EU261 all the standard cases are won in court as the rules set by the EU courts are giving the new rules that prevail....same here just not that many exceptions but a rather strait forward case. There are already law firms that will take these cases for free same as the EU261 cases.
Just not so many law-firms as it is a unique German law thing only for LH and all flights departing Germany....
So whether you agree or not - it is the law and not taking what is yours by law is your own personal decision. I will always take the money when I can - as companies have not given me that much for free to out-way what I would lose by not maxing out refunds that I can get...
PS: Cancelling a package vacation - they have the same "problems" and the tour operators are already slowly adapting to it....
Jul 30, 2015, 5:57 am
#10
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,152
Jul 30, 2015, 7:07 am
#11
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,967
Well hotels have a different law situation so do rental car companies....so we are looking at very different law situations.
As for airlines + LH at this point it does not even depend on the judge any-more as the law is very clear on it and there have by now been many, many cases with all the same outcome please note the linked article is from early 2014 as with EU261 all the standard cases are won in court as the rules set by the EU courts are giving the new rules that prevail....same here just not that many exceptions but a rather strait forward case. There are already law firms that will take these cases for free same as the EU261 cases.
Just not so many law-firms as it is a unique German law thing only for LH and all flights departing Germany....
So whether you agree or not - it is the law and not taking what is yours by law is your own personal decision. I will always take the money when I can - as companies have not given me that much for free to out-way what I would lose by not maxing out refunds that I can get...
PS: Cancelling a package vacation - they have the same "problems" and the tour operators are already slowly adapting to it....
As for airlines + LH at this point it does not even depend on the judge any-more as the law is very clear on it and there have by now been many, many cases with all the same outcome please note the linked article is from early 2014 as with EU261 all the standard cases are won in court as the rules set by the EU courts are giving the new rules that prevail....same here just not that many exceptions but a rather strait forward case. There are already law firms that will take these cases for free same as the EU261 cases.
Just not so many law-firms as it is a unique German law thing only for LH and all flights departing Germany....
So whether you agree or not - it is the law and not taking what is yours by law is your own personal decision. I will always take the money when I can - as companies have not given me that much for free to out-way what I would lose by not maxing out refunds that I can get...
PS: Cancelling a package vacation - they have the same "problems" and the tour operators are already slowly adapting to it....
And like it or not, I do not think it is a positive thing... What does limit me from booking 10 flights over the year at dirt cheap prices for "potential" vacation and in the end just use two, refunding the other 8. I will take away the cheap ticket for people who actually would be happy to fly on those dates.
If they argue "you didn't even plan to go" I can always say "Oh, I really did want to go, it just did not work out because [family, work, health,...]". Hard to prove for them I did not had the intention to go in the first place as long as I don't book overlapping flights.
In the end the whole pricing structure of air travel from/to Germany needs to be changed which most probably will not be in the benefit of the consumer.
Jul 30, 2015, 9:51 am
#13
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
FULL REFUND PERMITTED BEFORE DEPARTURE IN CASE OF
REJECTION OF VISA. EMBASSY STATEMENT REQUIRED.
----
REFUND OF UNUSED TAXES PERMITTED.
UNLESS APPLICABLE OW/RT FARE PLUS TAXES FOR ACTUAL
TRAVEL IS HIGHER THAN WHOLE ORIGINAL TICKET.
IN THIS CASE NO TAX OR FEE REFUND WILL BE
PERMITTED.
----
THE FOLLOWING TAXES ARE NONREFUNDABLE IN CASE OF
NONREFUNDABLE FARES - US TAX/ZP TAX/XF TAX
----
FOR NON REFUNDABLE TICKETS THE YQ/YR
INTERNATIONAL/DOMESTIC SURCHARGE WILL NOT BE
REFUNDED.
----
THE OPTIONAL PAYMENT CHARGE IS NON-REFUNDABLE.
REJECTION OF VISA. EMBASSY STATEMENT REQUIRED.
----
REFUND OF UNUSED TAXES PERMITTED.
UNLESS APPLICABLE OW/RT FARE PLUS TAXES FOR ACTUAL
TRAVEL IS HIGHER THAN WHOLE ORIGINAL TICKET.
IN THIS CASE NO TAX OR FEE REFUND WILL BE
PERMITTED.
----
THE FOLLOWING TAXES ARE NONREFUNDABLE IN CASE OF
NONREFUNDABLE FARES - US TAX/ZP TAX/XF TAX
----
FOR NON REFUNDABLE TICKETS THE YQ/YR
INTERNATIONAL/DOMESTIC SURCHARGE WILL NOT BE
REFUNDED.
----
THE OPTIONAL PAYMENT CHARGE IS NON-REFUNDABLE.
I would like to remind everyone, that LH might state these rules.
However, a German court (which is often pro-consumer) does not have to accept these rules.
If sueing LH in a German court, the court might order LH to pay back there "surcharges".
Jul 30, 2015, 12:30 pm
#14
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
I do not see "many, many cases" and that it is straight forward (also not mentioned in the article which just quotes two cases, one on TK, one on AZ). As said before, sure... you might get back your money but it is far from easy and involves getting a lawyer and fight for it.
You and me are not going to change that - only difference is - I will take the money while I can....
The LH clauses will NOT hold up in court as they are "illegal" in Germany as you buy a "Werkvetrag" and that can ALWAYS be cancelled and LH has to proof what their loss is on that particular individual contract...which they can't and will not in any public court room...too much effort for LH so they will just pay you...which seems to be the best practice these days once you get a lawyer LH knows that he will pull this through...you just need the right guy and LH will pay...
Last edited by Germanfflyer; Jul 30, 2015 at 12:42 pm