weero

You list some facts.
Well an MD could have cleared that one up.
And so did the OP! But if an airline chooses the "safe side", they need to man up to the cost of that choice. Unless of course you take the stance of our senior mod that any trolly dolly can boot any passenger and that is always the passenger's fault.
I had the 'pleasure' to sit to a number of malodorous passengers ... the airlines give a crap about protecting other pax from them.
Not true. If the suit of the OP is successful it might also change the behaviour of some employees.
No reason not to do it. This way the issue becomes know to higher management ranks within LOT.

warakorn

The fact is you were drunk and thats why you had to vomit.
LOT was in their right to remove you from the plane.
In this case they you have no right to be rebooked.
It was your fault.

YuropFlyer

Great to see the lady from the LOT transfer desk to be an active poster here

Let me, again, make a few things clear, which you apparently didn't understood:

-I was not drunk. I asked LOT to check me, either by having a doctor taking a blood test, or by a much easier breathalyser. They refused both. It's not forbidden to drink a few beers prior to flying, as much as I understand. I was in contact with a fellow FTer over Whatsapp all the time, and we had a rather clear communication. I was always fully aware of whats going on, and don't have any "memory leak". Again: I wasn't sobber, but then I wasn't drunk either. There is a level in between..

-Yes, LOT was in their right to remove me from the flight. But they can't remove you from a flight stating you to be unfit to fly, and sell you a new ticket right afterwards. Even for you, dear LOT transit desk lady, this should be clear. Or do you really support their stance? "You're not going to fly on THIS plane you have a ticket for. But if you spend 550€, you can fly the next one in 2 hours"..?

Anyway.. apart from some FTers here always defending the airlines, it seems that both LX as well as M&M have sided with me: I've now written confirmation by M&M that they won't revoke membership or any other measurements shall I chose to contest the charges (which I'm probably not going to do, thanks weero, but it's good to know) and they can't also believe what LOT did.

They've read the answer from LOT, when LOT actually agreeing to my story, just deciding that they aren't responsible for someone they denied boarding, but will still sell him the ticket, and can't believe LOT's reaction either (but can't do anything, yada yada - which I knew beforehand, anyway, but it's good to have it stated that they won't come back on me for any legal action taken against LOT)

So, I guess the next thing to do will be to demand IDB comp + flight costs + flight refund from the IDB's flight.

I wanted to be nice to LOT, only asking for the flight being refunded they forced buying me into, as YES, it was definitely partly my fault that they didn't let me fly. But by their behaviour afterwards in the airport, and now by their "customer not-care" they've clearly made sure I'll fight them nails and teeth for anything that EU261 allows me to.

So I guess I'll be writing my letter to Obstgartenstrasse 25 now.. (kind of weird to write to the Swiss HQ address, when it wasn't their fault at all, but as they seem to be in charge for LOT in Switzerland, I guess it has to go this way..)

Lack

I don't think "either with me or against me" will gain you any sympathy.

You said you had five beers. Unless you have a pretty high tolerance for alcohol (which I doubt is the case given the events), you'd be considered drunk (and we do have an "under influence" status that is lower too) in Poland.
I'm not sure about the airline procedures for measuring alcohol level in their passengers (do you expect them to have a doctor on staff? Do you expect them to force someone to take a test?)? I think it's a matter for the authorities, and there was nothing preventing you from going to the nearest hospital/clinic for a test. Or even a police station for a breathalyser. I'm sure blowing a big fat zero on the test would greatly aid your case.

Why not? You don't have to be sober to purchase a ticket.

YuropFlyer

Lack, what do you exactly try to prove with your posting?

That someone having had 1.65 litres of beer in the timeframe of 2 hours prior to boarding is too drunk to fly? According to some Bavarian politician*, drinking 2 litres of beer and then driving home is still ok (I don't agree with him, by the way)

http://www.welt.de/politik/article24...s-Bier-ok.html

I don't know where you're coming from (given your lack of home base in your profile) - in case it's Asia or (north) America, I guess your posting could be due to a different culture of enjoying beer (and a lower tolerance limit)

1.65 liters of beer, if drunken within 2 hours will give an average male a drunkness level of 0,76, I've just calculated it here:

http://www.onmeda.de/selbsttests/promille_rechner.html

Male, 85kg, 1.85m, 1.65 liters of beer @ 5.5% in 2 hours

With 0.76, I was even allowed to drive a car in Switzerland till about 10 years ago (when the limit was lowered from 0.8 to 0.5)

Why do you - and apparently a few others here - try to blame me for being drunk? I've eaten too much, I've had a few beers, I was running to the gate (with the later one definitely being partly the fault of LOT, if even their staff told me NOT to leave the lounge so early as the flight was only to board at 16.45) - so yes, the blame why I had to throw up can definitely be mostly put on me. But not the actions by LOT later..

Given the TR on FT, about quite a few people here regularly fly with more alcohol inside their bodies - much more in most cases - and consume much more on board. Are all of those people "drunkards" for you?

So, when LOT decides they're throwing me off a flight, it would be MY task to go for a police station to show that I was not "too drunk", not theirs? Really? According to you, when the police stops you on the road, it would be YOUR responsibility to prove you aren't drunk, not theirs to prove you're, seriously?

They selling me a ticket almost immediately after the denied boarding - allowed and encouraged by the same person that called me "drunk" isn't enough prove that LOT simply tried to slip of their responsibility?

I can only shake my head over such thinking, and I truly don't wish you to end up in such a situation, met with total ignorance and the air of "the customer is always wrong - unless the customer wants to buy a new ticket"..

But I guess there will always be a lot of LOT ( ) sympathisants (till they MALEV it..), who will defend (their?) airline no matter what..

fassy

Even as a pax on board I would feel really uneasy seeing somebody rushing on the plane, ramming in the lavatory door and reviewing his last meals and drinks...

So, I guess the assessment that your have been unfit to fly (be it due to illness or being drunk doesn't matter) at that moment done by the crew was in line with their policies and I guess a lot of people on board did welcome that decision.

I fail to see why they shouldn't sell a ticket for a flight 90 minutes later. You might feel better by then (again it doesn't matter if you sober up or your stomach just calms down). I guess it was in your interest to get home, so appreciate the opportunity to get a flight close to recent departed. In the worst case thy could deny boarding again

I agree it is not very customer friendly that they didn't rebook you for free, but as Oliver pointed out, they are not required to do so.

If you had left 10 minutes earlier from the lounge or had a beer or snack less, there wouldn't be any issue to discuss here. As a frequent flyer you should be able to estimate the time needed to reach the gate in time. This was totaly in your control.

Just take it as a lesson learned and move on.

YuropFlyer

Thanks for your input (without finger-pointing as the guy above)

Yes, that I ate too much was definitely my fault, and as said by myself and others, I am absolutely fine with the crew's decision. Just not by LOTs actions afterwards.
However, by pushing boarding time suddenly ahead (as described already, boarding was scheduled for 16.45, then suddenly started at 16.35 when I was about to leave the lounge anyway, which would have left plenty of time to reach the gate for the start of the boarding process) and even doing a "last call" about 5 minutes prior to the scheduled start of boarding, I wouldn't blame it all on myself for being "late". As I actually WAS estimating the time correctly for the announced boarding time. By pushing it suddenly forward (and I swear to you, it was still at "boarding 16.45" when I checked it at 16.30, before deciding to grab my things, and leave within a few minutes, which I did at 16.35)

That makes me going back to a thing I really hate about most airports - "gate closure times", in Singapore I can schedule it to reach the gate 12 minutes prior to departure (gates close 10min before), and other airports have similar rules. However, most airports are happy with the "we close the gate maybe 5 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes prior to departure" rule, which in my eyes is just silly, forcing the customer to be at the gate way earlier than it's needed. And will lead to situations like exactly here. Do you really want everyone having to be at the gate 30 minutes before departure, having to camp out 15 to 20 minutes, when boarding starts late (as usual..) just to be "safe"?

Fixed "gate closure" times would really help improve the situation for all travellers, be they experienced or first-time flyers.

And no, I won't "move on". I'll make sure that LOT won't be able to put such kind of "non-customer support" any more.

weero

Quite a non-sequitur - I don't drink and had to throw up numerous times from lounge food. Nothing special, it's over after 30 seconds and I feel fine again.
LOT has not evidence whatsoever that the OP was drunk.

Worse, if they had that evidence they acted grossly negligent by allowing the OP to fly.
OP was walking not driving. And he was evidently not incapacitated as LOT sold him a fare and let him fly.

fassy

To be honest... I do fly at least twice a week and I'm always at the gate at the time noted as "Boarding time" on my boarding pass*. Review some mails on the tablet or phone and just wait. Sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes 20 - won't kill me and avoid situations as you describe. You never know if you'll get a bus ride which usually means early boarding and early gate closure or a jet bridge where they are much more flexible with the timings.

* only if there are major delays I would chill longer in a lounge or restaurant.

Agreed, but this won't happen in Europe... to many Airlines, ground service companies, country specific rules and habits, etc...

Okay, have fun with that. I'm sure they will at some point throw a couple of miles to you, perhaps you even get some money back but for sure you're claim want stop this practice within the airline. They will do exactly the same next time if the crew, gate agents or ticketing agents feel that way

weero

And if the airline booted every infant of the plane that would be welcome by the vast majority of the passengers too. How is that a statement about the transport obligation of the airline?
Sober up in a few minutes ... so by your assertion there are no standards for what constitutes "unfit to fly"?
And who else than the OP can make the assessment of "feeling better"?
I urge the OP to have a court find that out.

With some effort even a more rewarding US ruling might be achieved. LX was slammed with high punitive damages for refusal to onward-transport a passenger which was deemed coercion. Given that LOT collected no evidence but left plenty of it, this might endow the OP with lots of ammo.
The OP did not miss his flight ... so how could you possibly know the outcome then?

fassy

Totally different thing... I would also appreciate flights without crying infants or fat stinking seat neighbours but that is not the point here. As said before, a guest boarding a plane and the first thing he does is vomiting in the lavatory is a total different thing. He could be seriously ill, really drunk or whatever. As crew member I would have taken the same decision and as pax on board I would have felt really akward when they would have allowed him staying on board.

First thing I did not say he was drunk. But perhaps a little bit off... So sitting back an hour in a calm area with a glass of water would be probably more than good enough to get on the next flight.

As he said, he felt bad because he ran to the gate filled with beer and food. Leaving for the gate 10 minutes earlier would mean a nice slow walk down the gates to A44 - and might have resolved all the issues.

kaell

Warsaw airport staff is rude, unhelpful, particularly in the transfer desk support,
they can not do anything, the airline operating stuff is no longer present, they will help nothing and so it is always like that

Lack

Does everyone has to have an agenda? Do I need my tinfoil hat as well?

Well, next time fly that Bavarian politicians airline, hope he/she is a FA on your flight, or at least a desk agent.

I come from neither of those regions.

Like I said, that's falls outside "under influence" and into "drunk" territory as far as Polish law definition goes. In your police-stop scenario, you'd face jail time.

Who else is to blame? Did someone make you drink/eat? I think that would be a more serious case for action then denied boarding.

My mother taught me better then rationalize my misbehavior by looking at others.
I had the "pleasure" to enjoy the company of a real drunkard on a flight once. He was warmly welcomed by four masked security officers and literally thrown out the plane on arrival. That was on LO as well.

Having flown a couple times, you should be pretty well aware that you don't stand a chance in a "he said, she said" argument with any cabin crew - so it should be in YOUR interest to prove them otherwise, wouldn't it?

Like I said, you don't have to be sober to buy a ticket...

I don't give a rats ... about LO and wish they'd gone under a long time ago. But sure, pigeonhole everyone with a different opinion if it helps you sleep better.

I agree that for the experienced traveler having a "10min before departure" policy is very welcome, but for the average flyer it creates all sorts of "I'm just a minute late" situations that are avoided with earlier boarding times.

LO used to have a "Gate closure is 15 min before departure" in fine print on the boarding pass though. Dunno why/if they don't anymore but they sure aren't strangers to that policy.

Don't forget to make sure they know who you are as well.

Lack

Which means he won't face criminal charges, not that he was sober.

Agreed for the most part, ground service is the worst part of the whole LOT experience.

bruceba

Agree completely. I would not sit next to you. The crew was correct.