Confirmed: KLM introduces Economy Comfort short-haul
#122
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: FB Platinum for Life
Posts: 1,019
Presumably the 3+2 arrangement had a fairly similar density to the current 2+2 arrangement in EBC (which no doubt has shorter seat pitch than the arrangement in Johan's picture..). However, it would have had a lower density in Y (or now Y+) where the current seating becomes 3+3, and presumably wouldn't work so well with a sliding curtain...
Last edited by KQ321; Oct 24, 2012 at 1:23 pm Reason: Clarifications...
#123
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: AMS / ATH
Programs: AFKL Plat, A3 Gold
Posts: 7,316
A very nice gesture on the part of KLM.
But can I ask - is it really worth all the hassle to you to desert KLM because you can't sit up front for free?
For those of us who travel in economy, we are already used to the variations in size in the business cabin. Choosing the first row in economy, I sometimes end up in row 3, but sometimes it's row 10. (And I'm still curious to see how they handle this ASR with potential variations in the size of the business cabin). This will mean that you are going to be sitting further back then previously would have been the case - but is that really so bad?
But can I ask - is it really worth all the hassle to you to desert KLM because you can't sit up front for free?
For those of us who travel in economy, we are already used to the variations in size in the business cabin. Choosing the first row in economy, I sometimes end up in row 3, but sometimes it's row 10. (And I'm still curious to see how they handle this ASR with potential variations in the size of the business cabin). This will mean that you are going to be sitting further back then previously would have been the case - but is that really so bad?
I realize my situation is somewhat specific. About 75% of my KLM flights are AMS-ATH flights, the rest is connecting through FCO or CDG.
At ATH the scheduled arrival time is 16:05 during the winter schedule, the bus I need to catch leaves 15:55. Yes that seems impossible, but due to the extreme large block times I usually make it. When I do miss it I have a 4 hour wait for the next connection. This all due to KLM cutting the ATH frequency from 3 to 1 daily flight over the last two years.
When making a transfer at FCO or CDG I generally have about 45 minutes. Here it is less important to be at the front, but it is still nice to be able to leave as one of the first in order to not stress about arriving at the gate on time.
One side effect of ASR that has not yet really been acknowledged here is that, particularly when you make a late or last-minute booking, a lot of the (free) seats may already have been claimed - so had the seats up front been free, they may already be gone, anyway! At least now, when they cost a little more, there is at least a chance that you can buy one, if it is crucial that you get off the plane early (i.e. tight connection, running for the last train of the night on arrival, etc etc).
Last edited by Xandrios; Oct 24, 2012 at 1:29 pm
#124
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Programs: Flying Blue (AF/KL)
Posts: 4,711
One side effect of ASR that has not yet really been acknowledged here is that, particularly when you make a late or last-minute booking, a lot of the (free) seats may already have been claimed - so had the seats up front been free, they may already be gone, anyway! At least now, when they cost a little more, there is at least a chance that you can buy one, if it is crucial that you get off the plane early (i.e. tight connection, running for the last train of the night on arrival, etc etc).
#125
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
I respectfully disagree. Those old EB seats were really comfortable, spacious, well padded, and had good integral headrests as well as sufficient pitch and recline. When KL purchased 738s and 739s they were fitted with a new lightweight seat, which was markedly less comfortable, but still much better than what you get now. The latter aircraft types only joined the fleet from 1999 and 2001 respectively, and retained their 2+3 J class seating for some time after the introduction of Europe Select. The 739s only got 3+3 seating in ES in 2007.
No, mid 90s. KL's first 733 arrived in 1986, and the first 734 in 1989. They were configured in an all-economy layout. The new 2+3 seating was heralded as finally introducing real J class standards on shorthaul flights.
The DC-9s which preceded the 737s never had business class seating. They did have Royal Class until that was abolished on shorthaul routes in the 70s, and were then reconfigured with economy class seating throughout (which of course was 2+3 anyway). I've always prefered the DC-9 to the 737, I'm always reminded of this on the odd occasion when I find myself in an SK MD80 series aircraft.
For those of you who can't remember Royal Class
(Don't ask me why the forks are on the wrong side of the plate. It is not a mirror image, as Vermeer's Melkmeisje is facing the right way)
Johan
The DC-9s which preceded the 737s never had business class seating. They did have Royal Class until that was abolished on shorthaul routes in the 70s, and were then reconfigured with economy class seating throughout (which of course was 2+3 anyway). I've always prefered the DC-9 to the 737, I'm always reminded of this on the odd occasion when I find myself in an SK MD80 series aircraft.
For those of you who can't remember Royal Class
(Don't ask me why the forks are on the wrong side of the plate. It is not a mirror image, as Vermeer's Melkmeisje is facing the right way)
Johan
#126
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Programs: Many
Posts: 773
That does look impressive. I assume this was not a short haul?
Uh? Where is the fork on the right wrong?
(Don't ask me why the forks are on the wrong side of the plate. It is not a mirror image, as Vermeer's Melkmeisje is facing the right way)
#127
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
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#128
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CDG/AMS
Programs: FB Plat for life, FB PC, M&M FT, Hertz President (+ many low tier cards)
Posts: 2,777
Yes, it does look impressive, but...it get's less impressive if you consider that
-This picture is not taken on the table of a Royal Class seat (Which wasn't even a slippery slope bed, but just a seat), but on some lush wooden decorum. At least I've never seen pictures of the cabin showing something similar.
-They wouldn't lay all that stuff on your table at the same time? 5 glasses? I don't get the point.
-We are talking about EC short haul here and comparing that with the long gone Royal Class on long haul is maybe a bit out of place...
-This picture is not taken on the table of a Royal Class seat (Which wasn't even a slippery slope bed, but just a seat), but on some lush wooden decorum. At least I've never seen pictures of the cabin showing something similar.
-They wouldn't lay all that stuff on your table at the same time? 5 glasses? I don't get the point.
-We are talking about EC short haul here and comparing that with the long gone Royal Class on long haul is maybe a bit out of place...
Last edited by Zembla; Oct 25, 2012 at 6:43 am
#129
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Uh . . . you obviously haven't flown Royal Class shorthaul, whereas I have lots of times.
There was a time when Royal Class was available on all KL aircraft, regardless of route. From an in-flight service perspective they did not distinguish between longhaul and shorthaul.
Ahh . . . . those were the days!
Johan
There was a time when Royal Class was available on all KL aircraft, regardless of route. From an in-flight service perspective they did not distinguish between longhaul and shorthaul.
Ahh . . . . those were the days!
Johan
#130
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Sure, the picture is staged, but RC really was impressive, take it from me.
The seat was definitely not a flatbed (although note that they did have proper beds on certain aircraft in the 50s), but comfortable enough. Besides, aircraft such as the DC8-63 had a separate dining louge, four seats in a club layout with a real table in between. This table was set in proper formal dinner style with the tableware and cutlery shown in the picture. I know, I've had dinner served in that lounge.
Johan
#132
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Anwhere ex-MAN
Programs: A3 *G, BA Silver
Posts: 2,706
KLM - Please Explain.....
Very slowly, why I need to pay for seats I can select at check-in on any other European airline (even AF)?
Why I run the real risk of being stuffed into a middle seat in economy whilst last minute check-ins with no status luxuriate in an aisle seat with a whole 9cm of extra leg room?
% of passengers who know that the front seats have extra legroom - maybe 5%
% of passengers who recline their seats on SH flights - maybe another 5%
This really is the final nail in the coffin for my KLM trips. I can get better seating on Easyjet for a fraction of your price. Goodbye.
Why I run the real risk of being stuffed into a middle seat in economy whilst last minute check-ins with no status luxuriate in an aisle seat with a whole 9cm of extra leg room?
% of passengers who know that the front seats have extra legroom - maybe 5%
% of passengers who recline their seats on SH flights - maybe another 5%
This really is the final nail in the coffin for my KLM trips. I can get better seating on Easyjet for a fraction of your price. Goodbye.
#133
Very slowly, why I need to pay for seats I can select at check-in on any other European airline (even AF)?
Why I run the real risk of being stuffed into a middle seat in economy whilst last minute check-ins with no status luxuriate in an aisle seat with a whole 9cm of extra leg room?
% of passengers who know that the front seats have extra legroom - maybe 5%
% of passengers who recline their seats on SH flights - maybe another 5%
This really is the final nail in the coffin for my KLM trips. I can get better seating on Easyjet for a fraction of your price. Goodbye.
Why I run the real risk of being stuffed into a middle seat in economy whilst last minute check-ins with no status luxuriate in an aisle seat with a whole 9cm of extra leg room?
% of passengers who know that the front seats have extra legroom - maybe 5%
% of passengers who recline their seats on SH flights - maybe another 5%
This really is the final nail in the coffin for my KLM trips. I can get better seating on Easyjet for a fraction of your price. Goodbye.
#134
Join Date: May 2006
Programs: FB Gold, TK Miles & Smiles Elite, Aeroplan
Posts: 248
This morning I complained to KLM on facebook about the introduction of Economy Comfort on short haul in general, and the fact that Gold members now have to pay for these seats AND that this also applies to bookings made before the introduction was announced.
To no avail: all I kept hearing back was how wonderful it is that KLM now offers me the option to sit in the economy comfort (as before, duh) and how even more wonderful it is I will get a 50% discount on the extra charge for these seats...
The only thing I find wonderful is that KLM apparently has found time to read another chapter of the book "how to get rid of your loyal customer as soon as possible". No wonder they plan to get rid of another 1.300 staff...
Anyway, mission accomplished I'd say. From now on I'll start looking elsewhere.
#135
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: In between PTY, MEX and CPH
Programs: Flying Blue Plat, SAS Eurobonus Silver, Connect Miles Gold, Marriott Lifetime Plat, Hyatt Disc.
Posts: 583
I got the same lollipop sunshine answer when I complained on Facebook. Clearly KLM must be thinking Gold members are ignorants and their loyalty is not important.
They might as well provide a donkey outfit for us next time they send out FB Gold cards...
They might as well provide a donkey outfit for us next time they send out FB Gold cards...