Confirmed: KLM introduces Economy Comfort short-haul
#241
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: AMS / ATH
Programs: AFKL Plat, A3 Gold
Posts: 7,316
So when are you gonna tell me to eat my previous post? ;-) That's some bad luck my friend.. I can't remember the last time somebody reclined in front of me, and I mostly fly the longer routes in Europe..
#242
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Pretty rare, but it does happen from time to time, even on the very short flights I take. Mostly from AMS, when they are full of jetlagged transfer pax who have just staggered off some longhaul flight.
Johan
Johan
#243
Join Date: May 2009
Programs: FB Platinum For Life, HH Diamond
Posts: 177
First check-in experience with the new system (all of my December flights so far were CityJet, so no EC):
This is a flight with a connection in AMS (short-haul to AMS, and then long-haul). Flying together with my wife (FBG). For the long-haul, we had bought an EC seat for her and reserved the seats a long time ago.
No issues for the long-haul flight at check-in. For the short-haul to AMS:
When I checked in, I (FBP) was preseated in 06C and had no choice of downgrading to standard economy. I selected 03C (first row after business), it accepted the seat, but then still showed 06C. Needed to do this two more times until the system showed 03C.
My wife was pre-seated on 17C. All rows before 17 were either EC, EER or had only middle seats left. EC would cost 20 EUR for her.
This is exactly as expected, but still extremely annoying. The effect of the system is that
All in all, I see no positive feature of the system, neither for the customer nor for KLM. The cost in terms of customer dissatisfaction and extra administration is high, the benefit is a what I expect to be revenue of between 100 and 300 EUR per flight (easily eaten up by the implementation of an upgrade policy).
This is a flight with a connection in AMS (short-haul to AMS, and then long-haul). Flying together with my wife (FBG). For the long-haul, we had bought an EC seat for her and reserved the seats a long time ago.
No issues for the long-haul flight at check-in. For the short-haul to AMS:
When I checked in, I (FBP) was preseated in 06C and had no choice of downgrading to standard economy. I selected 03C (first row after business), it accepted the seat, but then still showed 06C. Needed to do this two more times until the system showed 03C.
My wife was pre-seated on 17C. All rows before 17 were either EC, EER or had only middle seats left. EC would cost 20 EUR for her.
This is exactly as expected, but still extremely annoying. The effect of the system is that
- FBG and FBS feel less appreciated by having to sit further back in the plane (I think that the actual amount of discomfort for a 60 minute flight is negligible, but the psychological effect shouldn't be underestimated);
- FBP travelling with non-Platinum partners have to go through a lot of extra steps to ensure that they are sitting next to each other;
- in light of the load problems discussed up-thread, a system for "upgrading" standard economy to EC has to be devised and implemented: this result either in a lot of extra administration or very unhappy elite passengers.
All in all, I see no positive feature of the system, neither for the customer nor for KLM. The cost in terms of customer dissatisfaction and extra administration is high, the benefit is a what I expect to be revenue of between 100 and 300 EUR per flight (easily eaten up by the implementation of an upgrade policy).
#244
Onboard now and no way EC is filled with Plats. A lot of little children and (seemingly) infrequent travellers. Same for the EER.
Pluspoint is that boarding was incredibly fast. Must have begon early. Remarable was that the SP lane was physically blocked by baggagecarts.
Pluspoint is that boarding was incredibly fast. Must have begon early. Remarable was that the SP lane was physically blocked by baggagecarts.
Clearly EC seats are given to everybody who either holds PE (well deserved and should be the case without question) and to non elites full stop. Silvers and Golds are nicely placed in the back because most (I believe) won't pay for the privilege.
"Funny" thing is that not one single person seated in EC were seen in the GVA lounge (so most likely no Golds or Plats) OR in the SP queue boarding (so no P, G or S) as all who queued up here sat behind the orange head rest seats
From AMS to HEL insult was added to injury as a group of surfer "dudes" were seated in EC and I did talk to one of them waiting for our bags in HEL as he got his surfboard. He was not an elite by any means but had gotten a cheap ticket from KLM so he could surf in Asia somewhere for 6 months and complained that he had no money. Surely he had not forked out for EC
Over all I know it's wrong to judge or place people in specific groups, but having flown quite a bit over the years you can see who moves swiftly and have the routine. 95% of EC PAX so far are not in this group so Golds and Silvers are clearly made the laughing stock with KLM.
I can't believe how much this bothers me. Yes it's fine that the option is there, but when I have built up a loyalty towards the airline/alliance and I see non regulars get perks for nothing I feel like an utter idiot (more than usual some may say) and feel that KLM is trying to get even more money out of me (a loyal customer) and if I don't pay I get kicked in the groin and placed in a crappy seat with no leg room...
Well, at least I'm done flying KLM until things change so bye bye 30+ segments per year x 2, but why should KLM care... They are still making "lots" of money on unsold EC seats which the public "wants"...
KLM: 1 - Cupart: 0
#245
Join Date: May 2010
Programs: Delta Silver, HH Gold, Accor Gold, IHG Platinum
Posts: 5,338
Yesterday GVA-AMS, same story. I counted one Plat + family, but the rest were definitely NOT Elites let alone Platinum. EC was again filled with infrequent travellers. I was constantly checking the seatmap and around departure-1h, all Y seats were assigned and some EC seats were free. In the end the free EC seats were occupied as well so they must have been assigned for free for those who checked in late.
I do have to say that priority baggage delivery on this trip was awesome this time. ^
I do have to say that priority baggage delivery on this trip was awesome this time. ^
#246
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: AMS / ATH
Programs: AFKL Plat, A3 Gold
Posts: 7,316
I can't believe how much this bothers me. Yes it's fine that the option is there, but when I have built up a loyalty towards the airline/alliance and I see non regulars get perks for nothing I feel like an utter idiot (more than usual some may say) and feel that KLM is trying to get even more money out of me (a loyal customer) and if I don't pay I get kicked in the groin and placed in a crappy seat with no leg room...
Well, at least I'm done flying KLM until things change so bye bye 30+ segments per year x 2, but why should KLM care... They are still making "lots" of money on unsold EC seats which the public "wants"...
KLM: 1 - Cupart: 0
Well, at least I'm done flying KLM until things change so bye bye 30+ segments per year x 2, but why should KLM care... They are still making "lots" of money on unsold EC seats which the public "wants"...
KLM: 1 - Cupart: 0
On a sidenote, just booked a fairly 'new' KLM flight (Flight number was added/loaded a week ago) and ASR does not know of any special seating. Both EC and exit rows are free to choose by anyone. It just loaded up a completely blue / free B737-800 seatmap.
I am surprised the seatmap is connected to a specific flight, I would expect the seatmap to be connected to the aircraft type. Guess thats the technical implementation though.
#247
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Indeed it does. Better late than never, I guess. Only two seats taken in row 3 - 11, which makes me wonder whether they were available to anyone at all until now.
At T-96, EB availability suddenly jumped to J9 C9, having previously been stuck at J3 C2 for ages. I therefore expected the seat map to show at least three rows of EB, but there were only two. Tough to squeeze nine pax in there without using middle seats. However, availability has now dropped to J3 C3, with economy at Y7 B7 M3.
Johan
At T-96, EB availability suddenly jumped to J9 C9, having previously been stuck at J3 C2 for ages. I therefore expected the seat map to show at least three rows of EB, but there were only two. Tough to squeeze nine pax in there without using middle seats. However, availability has now dropped to J3 C3, with economy at Y7 B7 M3.
Johan
#248
The bag handling at GVA is brutal (at best of times) and getting your priority tagged bag(s) among the first is purely hit or miss tbh... God knows how many trains I have missed because my bag was not among the first ones out but rather in the middle of non priority marked bags
#249
Join Date: May 2010
Programs: Delta Silver, HH Gold, Accor Gold, IHG Platinum
Posts: 5,338
Did we go through the same GVA I wonder?
The bag handling at GVA is brutal (at best of times) and getting your priority tagged bag(s) among the first is purely hit or miss tbh... God knows how many trains I have missed because my bag was not among the first ones out but rather in the middle of non priority marked bags
The bag handling at GVA is brutal (at best of times) and getting your priority tagged bag(s) among the first is purely hit or miss tbh... God knows how many trains I have missed because my bag was not among the first ones out but rather in the middle of non priority marked bags
This time, however, the first bags on the belt were priority tagged only, and it were quite a lot of priority bags on that flight!
What I have noticed, is that ex-GVA they now use a new style of baggage label. In addition to the physical yellow priority tag, there is now written in large 'Priority' on the bag-label itself. Also, my full name was quite large on the tag. Could it be that the system now identifies priority bags automatically by bar code, avoiding that priority delivery depends on manual (human) willingness?
Either way, at AMS the first bags were all priority and they came out relatively quick after landing.
#250
What I have noticed, is that ex-GVA they now use a new style of baggage label. In addition to the physical yellow priority tag, there is now written in large 'Priority' on the bag-label itself. Also, my full name was quite large on the tag. Could it be that the system now identifies priority bags automatically by bar code, avoiding that priority delivery depends on manual (human) willingness?
I once questioned a check-in agent at Roissy why he hadn't put the yellow priority marker on my bag (he clearly forgot or just couldn't be arsed) and said it was printed on the bag tag so no need to. Needless to say my bag did not come (as usual) among the first...
#251
Join Date: May 2010
Programs: Delta Silver, HH Gold, Accor Gold, IHG Platinum
Posts: 5,338
Nope, has been like that for a good number of years. First time I saw it was out of DUB in 2009.
I once questioned a check-in agent at Roissy why he hadn't put the yellow priority marker on my bag (he clearly forgot or just couldn't be arsed) and said it was printed on the bag tag so no need to. Needless to say my bag did not come (as usual) among the first...
I once questioned a check-in agent at Roissy why he hadn't put the yellow priority marker on my bag (he clearly forgot or just couldn't be arsed) and said it was printed on the bag tag so no need to. Needless to say my bag did not come (as usual) among the first...
#252
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Programs: Flying Blue (AF/KL)
Posts: 4,711
KL 1009 (B739) tomorrow:
Flight seems full, as all regular Economy seats are taken. Buy up to EBC is offered for € 70 (two seats available, EBC is only until row 3). There are currently 20 EC seats & 8 extra-legroom seats available.
Interesting to see what the actual situation is.
Flight seems full, as all regular Economy seats are taken. Buy up to EBC is offered for € 70 (two seats available, EBC is only until row 3). There are currently 20 EC seats & 8 extra-legroom seats available.
Interesting to see what the actual situation is.
#253
Join Date: Dec 2009
Programs: FB-LTPE
Posts: 506
OK - here are my first experiences:
FCO-AMS: Y far from sold out, 3 people in EC; they were all Elites as the purser came to greet us (the other two appeared to be Delta FFers); after take off 2 people moved from regular Y to empty rows.
AMS-FCO: Y was completely full with, EC as well with mostly young Italians.
I can now better understand the frustrations of Gold/Silver members on such full flights.
FCO-AMS: Y far from sold out, 3 people in EC; they were all Elites as the purser came to greet us (the other two appeared to be Delta FFers); after take off 2 people moved from regular Y to empty rows.
AMS-FCO: Y was completely full with, EC as well with mostly young Italians.
I can now better understand the frustrations of Gold/Silver members on such full flights.
#254
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Just checked the seatmap for my AMS-CPH flight. EB upgrades no longer offered, and every single Y seat taken, with the exception of four out of five EER seats. I strongly suspect that nobody was willing to pay for them, so they will go to those who check in last.
Johan
Johan
#255
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
The AMS-CPH flight left with all six EB seats empty (no takers for the 159 upgrade, apparently. Funny, that!). In the EER only the window seats were occupied. A had been taken when I last checked the seatmap, the guy in F must have been lucky to check in last, or else moved there by the FA.
I'm glad I was able to finally select row 3 at T-72, even that far forward I could hear the babies screaming in the back. Must have been half a dozen of 'm?
Off topic and out of curiosity: is there a limit to the number of infants airlines will/may allow on a flight? The certifying authorities obviously set an absolute maximum for the number of pax each aircraft type is allowed to carry, but most airlines will install fewer seats than the maximum permitted, so that presumably the number of lap infants is limited only by the difference between the number seats and the number of pax the aircraft is allowed to carry, at least on full flights.
Johan
I'm glad I was able to finally select row 3 at T-72, even that far forward I could hear the babies screaming in the back. Must have been half a dozen of 'm?
Off topic and out of curiosity: is there a limit to the number of infants airlines will/may allow on a flight? The certifying authorities obviously set an absolute maximum for the number of pax each aircraft type is allowed to carry, but most airlines will install fewer seats than the maximum permitted, so that presumably the number of lap infants is limited only by the difference between the number seats and the number of pax the aircraft is allowed to carry, at least on full flights.
Johan