Moderator: Travel Technology, Travel Photography and JetBlue
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 29,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerd
Clearly, no one is concerned what the lowest published fare is.
It seems about as relevant to me as what the lowest available ticket price is on a randomly selected route and date combination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsx
I've noticed this sort of thing for years with Southwest. Other airlines are often willing to sell deeply discounted seats on flights that are guaranteed to sell out anyway. Southwest typically insists on higher prices at peak times on peak dates, relenting about 8 weeks before departure if sales are too slow. The other guys do it backwards, selling the cheap seats 11 months ahead and then not being able to sell full fares a week ahead because the flight is fully booked.
But I've started to see signs that the legacy carriers are catching on, and charging more for Friday and Sunday flights, for example. Restricted standby policy (Southwest's is among the most restrictive) is an essential ingredient, to prevent you from buying the cheap off-peak flight and flying on the peak hour flight.
The legacies are definitely changing their tune, some more quickly than others. CO is much, much better at revenue and inventory management these days, basically starting high 11 months out and then slowly introducing "sale" fares to balance out the numbers if they aren't hitting their targets. DL seems to be getting better at is as well. I have not seen the other legacies adjust quite as quickly.
It seems about as relevant to me as what the lowest available ticket price is on a randomly selected route and date combination.
It doesn't matter what the lowest published fare is, it matters what the flight costs me.
As for random routes, I'm just posting B6's fares for my upcoming summer travel. So far, jetBlue is 3 for 3 on being the most expensive carrier. Take the data points as you wish.
I have not seen the other legacies adjust quite as quickly.
AA's mainline yield has been higher than that of UA or DL or NW or US or CO for several years now - so it hasn't had to "adjust" the way the other legacies have had to adjust. AA invented the process and continues to excel in its application.
JetBlue charged lower fares because for the first several years of their leases with Airbus, they did not have to pay. So they tried to gain as much market share as possible. Now that they are paying for aircraft leases, obviously they can no longer undercut the competition, so their fares have risen dramatically.
Are you smoking crack???? You know we still done pay for airplanes and our gas is free to!!!
Jetblue's off-season fares are actually pretty competitive. The problem is during peak travel season (which for SEA, means anytime during the summer, Thanksgiving, or Christmas).
It's gotten to the point where I don't even bother checking B6's fares when traveling during peak periods. They want $900 for a Y ticket for SEA-JFK in November or December. DL and AA charge $400. Ridiculous.
Maybe B6's strategy was/is to build such a level of brand awareness, preference (and loyalty)? that enough people will just book and buy B6 without even checking fares of other airlines.
One stroke of genius at Southwest is that they don't post their fares in comparative environments like Expedia. You have to go to the source. So a lot of people take it on faith that Southwest is economical for passengers, when it frequently is anything but.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsx
I've noticed this sort of thing for years with Southwest. Other airlines are often willing to sell deeply discounted seats on flights that are guaranteed to sell out anyway. Southwest typically insists on higher prices at peak times on peak dates, relenting about 8 weeks before departure if sales are too slow. The other guys do it backwards...
I am wondering if a lot of what we're seeing from B6 is simply crude, clumsy, automated yield management. Sell X seats out of the cheapest bucket, bang, that bucket is gone, present the next-highest bucket... right on up to departure day. It could be that the legacies are much more adept at bucket-fiddling in response to the sales rate, therefore more apt to release more cheaper seats closer to day of flight if the LF isn't looking promising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWAAA
AA's mainline yield has been higher than that of UA or DL or NW or US or CO for several years now - so it hasn't had to "adjust"... AA invented the process and continues to excel in its application.
This is exactly how AA and Bob Crandall ran PeopleExpress into the ground 20+ years ago -- with better dynamic yield management. PE had a couple of crude "buckets" -- peak and off-peak. AA released a few seats at PE's cheapest "off-peak" rate on all their flights, and made the public think AA was as cheap as PE... then sold the rest of the fuselage at more profitable rates. PE had no comparable revenue management software. Game, set, match. When people like the posters in this thread book away from B6 because B6 fares are either $100+ pricier or flat-out outrageous and non-competitive, I hypothesize B6 is suffering from a sort-of-the-same situation as PE... hamstrung by crude and undynamic "bucketing." Just a thought.
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Owing to heightened security you must comply with any crazy fake "regulation" we make up. Thank you sir.
I am wondering if a lot of what we're seeing from B6 is simply crude, clumsy, automated yield management. Sell X seats out of the cheapest bucket, bang, that bucket is gone, present the next-highest bucket... right on up to departure day. It could be that the legacies are much more adept at bucket-fiddling in response to the sales rate, therefore more apt to release more cheaper seats closer to day of flight if the LF isn't looking promising.
There are not too many people who will only use B6 and that's it. I'd guestimate it to be no higher than 10-15% of their pax tops on routes they serve. I think most people will go with B6 if they are in the ballpark with other carriers as far as price goes. People appreciate friendly service, new/clean planes, and free TV at a reasonable price [, not being excessive more than other carriers].
On a personal note, I used to only check out B6 and CO to compare prices. Once B6 started posting their fares on sites like expedia.com and sidestep.com, I now go to those sites to compare for all routes, not just on the routes B6 doesn't serve.
On a personal note, I used to only check out B6 and CO to compare prices. Once B6 started posting their fares on sites like expedia.com and sidestep.com, I now go to those sites to compare for all routes, not just on the routes B6 doesn't serve.
I still go to jetblue.com to check the seat maps, because they do not always show up on expedia or orbitz.
Starting approx. 6 months out, I make a plot of price (for a particular flight) versus purchase date including the farebuckets and occupation of seat maps. By doing this I graph the fare evolution over time and thus can more easily determine when to buy. As a result, I never paid more than $10-20 of the absolute lowest price.
Funny how B6 works out the same crap shoot terminal today. It still really isn't much better than it was 20 years ago.
Except for the fact that B6 has jetways at JFK, no, not much. One of the fun things about the PE days was walking outside and up two flights of open-air stairs to board a 747.
PE actually commissioned EWR Terminal C and ran ads towards the end of its life saying, "You know that shiny bright new terminal you wish we had at Newark? We're building it." By the time it was finished, PE had collapsed.
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Owing to heightened security you must comply with any crazy fake "regulation" we make up. Thank you sir.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsx
Exactly the same thought occurred to me. I have fond memories of PE, except for that third-world terminal at EWR...
It wasn't only the yield management that had problems. I made only one PE flight across the Atlantic - bought an LGW-EWR-MSP on a Saturday. Got to EWR to find the EWR-MSP only operated weekdays! Doh! Had an unexpected night in an EWR Holiday Inn and used NW for the rest of the trip - I figured I couldn't trust the rest of an organization that could sell me a ticket for a flight that didn't exist!
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Frequent travel - it broadens a lot more than the mind....
Except for the fact that B6 has jetways at JFK, no, not much. One of the fun things about the PE days was walking outside and up two flights of open-air stairs to board a 747.
PE actually commissioned EWR Terminal C and ran ads towards the end of its life saying, "You know that shiny bright new terminal you wish we had at Newark? We're building it." By the time it was finished, PE had collapsed.
Before attempting to work out of Terminal C, they were in terminal A, right?
Moderator: Travel Technology, Travel Photography and JetBlue
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 29,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieuwer2
I still go to jetblue.com to check the seat maps, because they do not always show up on expedia or orbitz.
Starting approx. 6 months out, I make a plot of price (for a particular flight) versus purchase date including the farebuckets and occupation of seat maps. By doing this I graph the fare evolution over time and thus can more easily determine when to buy. As a result, I never paid more than $10-20 of the absolute lowest price.
You know that farecast does this tracking of prices already, right? Might be easier to let someone else do the data aggregation for you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seat13c
Before attempting to work out of Terminal C, they were in terminal A, right?
No, it was the North Terminal, built in the 1950s or earlier. The "concourses" were always under construction, essentially plywood tunnels on top of the concrete ramp.
