evergrn

This is to vent mostly, but I'd also like to hear what people think. I'm not an expert in economics or sociology, nor do I want to divulge personal details. So I apologize in advance if I can't provide much in the way of details or any meaningful counterpoint subsequently in this thread. And please correct me if any of my points are misguided. I'd just like to vent and then hear what more insightful people have to say in relation to this.

We've been interested in moving back to Jpn for a while. I'm in US in a line of work where US is arguably the global leader. If I could get a job related to my field in Jpn, my pay would be far lower than just about all other places I could go to. Even then I'm willing to consider moving there, cuz it's my homeland. But the interest isn't mutual. It seems the barriers are Jpn's regulations and my age (>35yo). Headhunters in Jpn have slammed the door on me, admitting that Jpn is still very closed. I could get a job in so many other first-world countries. But in theory, I should clearly be of most use to Jpn since I speak English and Japanese fluently. Doesn't matter.

Jpn has these problems: declining population, increasing % of elderly (with high life expectancy), burgeoning debt, increasing natural disasters.

So then bring in immigrants, right? And the reality is many sectors of Jpn now depend on immigrants, yet Jpn remains xenophobic and will not make their acceptance official. They accept <50 refugees a year. If you participate in Japanese people's forums like I do, the amount of xenophobia expressed is disgusting. The overwhelming sentiment is that foreigners are not welcome no matter what the macroeconomics dictate.

So what gives? Delay retirement age. Make people work longer. But this goes counter to Jpn's entrenched age discrimination. I hear that companies wean employees off their posts when they get closer to 60. After that, you either work for the company in a lesser role for much less, or you start over in an unrelated line of work, even arubaito. NHK will have you believe that retiring later is a good thing. But that's not the overwhelming sentiment of Japanese online community.

My lack of success finding my way back to Jpn is an example of someone getting shut out by Jpn's closed, age-discriminating system.

Friends think I'm crazy to think about leaving US for Jpn. Do you agree? Even if we do find our way back to Jpn in the near future, what's Jpn's future like and what is my kids' future in Jpn like, assuming Jpn continues to make changes at glacial pace?

mjm

I am curious as to the barriers. If you hold Japanese citizenship, there are no barriers at all. Legally. As one gets to 40 or 50 one is hired only at management level and has to be better than the other choices. Often this is defined by the relationships (or perceived possible relationships) one can offer the hiring firm. The preference though is clearly to organically develop staff from their 20’s. The headhunter that I see being successful here are Robert Walters for higher end jobs. If you have not yet reached out to them that may be worth a call. Not the local US office, the Japan office.
There is an insane amount of xenophobia this is true, but it is a billion times better than 25 years ago even. It is not going to change anytime soon though, best to see it as a part of the environment and factor it out. To say however that foreigners are not welcome though is to far overstate the case. As a Caucasian American I have been made to feel and this is regularly repeated, feel very welcome. Both in professional and private lives here. I think it is very easy to get stuck in the Gaijin vs. Japanese mindset, but trust me, this is wholly of one’s own making if becomes an impediment to your happiness. Xenophobia exists, but it is not practiced to the extent it impinges on non-Japanese lives. I have found exactly zero difference in terms of access to housing loans, credit cards, restaurant reservations, invitations to various groups, etc. It really is what you make of it in that sense. Of course I am basing this on fluency because at the root of better relationships is good and effective communication.

Retirement age will certainly get delayed, it is on the cards now. Currently one works until 60 at which point they move from being a non-contract employee (i.e. lifetime) to a contract employee with annual renewals. The cut in pay for management is approx. 50%. You are also tasked with about 20% of your previous work anyway so a win-win. Full salary until 60, half after that until 65. Taxes reduced dramatically after 60 and further after 65. The change to a later retirement age is foreseen, and will be addressed but like with all novel ideas it will take a while here.

To get back to Japan being employed means either transferring here or getting in to a new job via a headhunter at management level IU think. At age 25 or 30 it is a whole different game.

The question of kids is a bigger issue. If they are college age and can study in the US that is great but f they are going to be returnees or expats with Japanese language skills they will be taking a huge step backwards here in anything up through High School.
The system is not designed as is the US system. It lacks any real sense of individuality and focuses on a group ethic. Kids in Japan of parents who favor the individuality so prized in the US and other paces are best advised if here to send the kids to an international school that effectively replicates what they would have at home albeit at a much higher cost. I would wait until the kids are college age unless you get a job here that allows international schooling.

Al, of that aid, I could not imagine living in the SU right now. I far prefer the possibilities open to me as an adult in Japan. The negative points about the US tend to loom even more largely when away. The good points do too though. Crazy? No. Needing to strategize and make a pluses and minuses two column sheet? Oh yes

txflyer77

I've considered trying to work in Japan for a year or two. Unfortunately salaries in my field are optimistically a fifth of what they are back in the US.

I might try to swing some kind of short term assignment with an American company (3-6 month). That seems to be the only way that makes sense in my industry. Make American wages, deal with a corporate politics I understand (as opposed to within a Japanese corporation) and let them deal with visas and such.

It's possible within the Silicon Valley tech giants if you know the right managers.

evergrn

Great points as always, mjm.

I'm a Japan native but US citizen. Visa shouldn't be an issue due to my having immediate family members who're Japanese and reside in Jpn. I can't really go into too many details about the barriers beyond what I've already said. I'll just say that these barriers are strictly age/policy/culture-related, and these barriers seem to be significantly less in places like Singapore and even China. I can't remember if I've talked to Robert Walters. I've talked to many over the last few years. I'd have to go back over my emails.

I think most of xenophobia I see being expressed by Japanese on Japanese forums is directed towards Asian tourists/immigrants and types of people seeking refuge in Jpn. Caucasians are looked upon differently.

I think you are generally pro-Jpn on most topics (in very logical ways). So to hear you say that you'd favor US education over Jpn's is a strong statement. I don't think I can afford international school in Jpn, and I presume most international school grads end up doing university abroad like in US. So it seems to me that almost defeats a significant part of the purpose of moving to Jpn, as much of our reason for thinking about moving to Jpn is based on how we want our kids to grow up. Our kids are still young (<10yo). US education system just makes more sense overall, I can agree on that. It's just that, more than anything, we want our kids to grow up humble and considerate.

I'm not in the tech industry unfortunately. For the same job, my salary in Jpn would be ~40% pay and I can't do the exact same job in Jpn anyways due to red tapes. For other related jobs that I could technically do (but haven't been able to find), the pay will be 1/4.

mjm

No further details necessary, that is plenty to work with. I think you will find nearly zero legal barriers to working here, they will be primarily monetary.
Yes the Japanese are pretty xenophobic towards the rest of Asia, Weird given that is where they came from. I love pointing that tidbit out. To the racists I run into.

I am pro-Japan on many things yes. Education though is a hard one. The skill set a Japanese kid walks out of high school with in Math for example can be terrific but she would have no clue about European history. Conversely International schools are easily on a par in Math yet teach both Japanese and European history. Languages as well. It is hard for me to support a system that does not have grades per se, no real access to records, no GPA, etc. It just makes it very hard to set standards for yourself and measure your performance against past performance to see where additional effort is required or where pride is warranted. Extra-curriculars do not exist here and sports clubs take the place of many of the more interesting clubs (Animal Rights, Human Rights, LGBT support, debate, etc. ad infinitum.) The only possible reason I could think of anyone sending their kid to Japanese high school is if they intended for them to go to Japanese university. If that child were male that is one thing but nobody in their right mind would say a female’s chances at a rewarding career are very good here. So that leaves abroad and that requires application credentials, language etc. Back to square one. I find taht many of the Japanese with whom I have the most interesting conversations are those who have gone through school here, studied abroad and chosen to work for a Japanese firm either here or overseas. They struggle with their peers to an extent, but they are a growing number and very thrilling to encounter.

Humble and considerate (I totally get that and understand why) is something that rubs off from being here I think. If you can negotiate a package that includes school fees at international school you will have your kids meeting and interacting with many Japanese children and picking up on the way things are done here. It is pricey but having managed to pay the whole thing working on a typical Japanese salary most of my adult life I now it is feasible too. (2 kids)

mrploddy

I'm currently in Shikoku and there is no way that I would want to put my daughter through the traditional Japanese education system for the whole time.

Two big things

1) English - Japanese English education sucks...period - yes I know about International schools but can't afford it on my salary.
2) Critical thinking - The UK school system teaches you how to think and be critical - take for example history Japan does has a set textbook and that's how it goes they don't try to teach that there might be conflicting viewpoints.

What my elders always told me - it's better to know how to think than it is to be a walking textbook. Japan's education system is still too slanted towards creating walking textbooks and that's one of it's big downfalls.

Work issue not withstanding - I work remotely for a UK company and it's so laid back it's untrue the working. I work at a desk in my apartment and I have a 2 second commute. Like heck would I want to commit to mandatory overtime and such - yes I'll do the odd freelance job for companies I know but no way would I become a seishain.

The final thing for me is the pension system - I posted a thread about it before people doubt it but I'm sure sooner or later there's gonna be a big fall out when the goverment will have to seriously reduce payouts or SOMETHING but right now I am doing everything I can to reduce what I pay in to the Kokumin Nenkin - at least the UK I know the population graph is stable and I will be able to draw a pension when I get to that age.

5khours

Fantastic place to live if you have money...not so great on a tight budget (unless you're young and single.)

Generally a terrible place to work....but there are exceptions.

I've experienced curiosity but never any racism or xenophobia.... but I'm Caucasian. Japanese are racists toward other Asians.

Returnees and 2nd generation Japanese sometimes have a hard time, but some people make it work.

Japanese elementary school is a great experience for a year or two, but a terrible experience once you get into the juku/entrance exam routine.

International schools are pretty good.

I would not want kids going to elementary or middle school in the U.S. It's a pretty toxic environment IMHO.

Japan is doomed to gradual decline but they'll manage it in a non-catastrophic manner.

Totally get why you would like to live/raise kids in Japan. I know a fair amount about business, employment, opportunities in Japan. Don't want to say too much on the forum, but PM me if you would like advice.

WorldLux

On the other hand, that policy seems to pay out when it comes to petty crime, public safety, adherence to rules and common courtesy. Very hard to spot a crime-ridden neighbourhood, dirty public/private spaces.

That's a point I like about Japan: There's no disgusting smell covering the streets. Everything's clean. Everyone queues where it is expected. Try that in New York, San Francisco, Dallas, Miami, Los Angeles, London, Paris, etc. . You can obviously hold blind adherence to rules against Japanese as it often proofs to be a barrier to flexible solutions.

A forum is certainly not the best place to determine the general attitude of an entire population. I'm not claiming that there isn't a good dose of xenophobia in the mix, but there are a lot of Japanese that genuinely welcome foreigners.

In some cases, I have found it difficult to make the difference between xenophobia and the language barrier. To this day, I'm surprised that JAL can't [redacted] release an English version of their app. Don't they have foreign customers? Do all JL passenger navigate the Japanese version of their app?

RichardInSF

This is a very interesting thread. About the only point I can throw in as a former employer, of both Japanese technical staff and elsewhere, is that there was a significant salary differential between Japan and other developed nations, often to the detriment of our Japanese staff.

In 203-14, we paid highly trained technical support folks (equivalent in skill to a decent software engineer) Y6-9 million in Japan and $80-120k elsewhere.

Those of us on this forum know that Tokyo is no longer super-expensive by world standards, but it does feel comparable to other large cities. So unless the Yen is in a period when it is unusually strong, these salary differentials do suggest things are tougher even for techies.

24left

@evergrn

A most interesting thread. Thanks for posting and thanks to the posters above for sharing experiences and insights.

evergrn

I appreciate everyone's feedback. All of this is immensely helpful in trying to validate our desire to move to Jpn while confirming some of our fears about living there. Also, some of the points that may come along with this discussion will perhaps help some folks appreciate Jpn's complexity that is not so apparent to tourists.

There are no legal barriers, technically speaking. Money-wise, yes it's challenging. But if someone in Jpn offered me an appealing job and said "we can only pay you 1/3 of what you make in US, but we really want you," I think I will seriously consider it. But that still hasn't happened after a few years of talking to different recruiters and a few direct inquiries to employers themselves. I think things would be different if I were in high-tech.


I have girls.


I'd have to look into that option once again. But if your kids go to international school, that's pretty much paving the way for them to leave Jpn after all, right? I've read that <20% of international school grads go to college in Jpn (ICU, Sophia, APU in Beppu, any other options?), and most everyone else goes to either US or UK. I went to a US university ~20yrs ago and became friends with a bunch of people there who'd graduated from international schools in Jpn, ~half of them Japanese and the rest Indians or other Asians. They were all good people, but they seemed sort of Americanized and they partied hard. I think vast majority of them were going to stay in the US after college. But that was 20yrs ago.


See, you guys get what I'm talking about. It's hard to talk about this with people who live in the US... sometimes they get offended and say things like it's not about US vs Jpn but rather it's the way you raise your kids. To me it's not that simple.


If I may ask, are you a UK citizen with Japanese permanent residence? And you're paying into both Jpanese and UK pension separately? You don't have to return to UK to receive UK pension, correct?


My mom said Jpn's fun to visit, but not great to live in.


Yeah I might be in for a rough ride. I have Japanese name, I look Japanese, but have never worked in Jpn, horrible with keigo. It's why I want to be selective with my job search... but so much for being selective.


Talking about public schools and limiting the scope of this conversation to only top-tier school districts, I'd say US public schools have a lot of great things going for them. Teachers and principals are good, very responsive. I'm sure not as much ijime as in Jpn. On the other hand, I understand what you're saying. Already in middle school, pot and sex, aggressive parents. Once you get to high school, dichotomy between honors track students and everyone else.


Appreciate it. Might take you up on it down the road.


I won't put on a PC mantra and try to counter your point that immigrants lead to crimes, societal degradation, smells, etc. However, even if you make the point that homogeneity is what's good about Jpn, it seems to me that policy is at odds with Jpn's sustenability. I don't know, again I'm not an expert.

Unfortunately Jpn's xenophobia is fairly prominent and real. I was just bringing up Internet forum as an example. But it's the government policy, what's being said in the media, my own relatives and acquaintances in Jpn... it is very apparent to me. But as mjm said before, I'm sure things have gotten better compared to 25yrs ago.

mrploddy

Yes UK citizen with PR due to Japanese wife - got it pretty quickly actually think I impressed Immigration by self preparing my app without any help from the Mrs.

Japan and the UK don't have a pension totalisation agreement so they're separated.

The UK government will quite happily continue to take Pension contributions from me whilst overseas known as National Insurance to build up Contribution Years towards the 35 you need to get a full state pension.

It's actually been rather cheap up until now - if you have 2 years I think of contributing full rate contributions via UK based contributions you were allowed to overseas to pay at a rate of $220USD a year to build up a valid contribution year for pension after going overseas known as "Class 2 National Insurance". However unfortunately the government is scrapping this from next year at which point I'll have to start paying Class 3 contributions which will see weekly rate go up to £13.40 from £2.40.

However that notwithstanding....

Current Japanese Pension - 66,000 yen = £488 a month

New UK state pensio - £159 ish a week = £636 a month

Currently the Basic State Pension contribution is :-

UK - £13.40 - rising to £40 - 50 a month from next year.
Japan - £120 a month

I am paying LESS to the British government for my state pension and when I reach pension age I will get MORE in pension payments. Not to mention there is no guarantee that the level of payment in the Japanese system can be maintained - I seriously suspect the amount will FALL to keep the system liquid.

HENCE you can probably see my reluctance at being forced to pay pension to Japan based on these circumstances but unfortunately I have to because the law says I do. I have no qualms in paying my wifes state pension as she's already got over 20 years contributions built up but for me starting from scratch in my 30's it seems quite a bad investment....

mjm

I would not assume that I think. The better universities vis a vis Japan are certainly overseas, but there are many Japanese parents, (some schools are nearly 70-80% so, that send their kids to Jr. HS and Sr. HS to learn English and then re-enter the Japanese system to be fully qualified Japanese grads with rocking English skills. The kids often end up doing all the regular int’l school work plus a healthy dose of Juku on the side. Nightmare-ish, but it gives them an edge entering he job market locally. There are likely very few Japanese parents who would consider the US schools a better choice as undergrads but would very much consider them for a year abroad or a Master’s degree. So much of a person’s marketability here is tied to the name of the institution they attend as an undergrad. Fp0r that alone I thin k it is a career killer for Japanese students whose parents hope they live in Japan to send them overseas as undergrads.

Not to say she is wrong, but in 27 years I have only missed some specific people, pizza, Mexican food and good barbecue. Besides that Japan is an awesome place to live.

Am holding the printout I got from the Nenkinjimusho that shows how much I will be due when I retire and it is triple what you state. I think this is due to the fact my form requires us to pay into a higher level insurance plan, but still as it is an option for all, and a requirement in my industry, 180-200K is much more realistic if you want it to be.

My contributions are a lot more than £120 a month too though.

mrploddy

Oh I don't dispute that people who have Kosei Nenkin and/or their own private plans will get more in payouts.

What I am comparing like for like is the absolutely bog standard basic pension with no sprinkles on top.

The point I was trying to make is that the UK basic state pension is a much better deal than the Japanese one.

Because I work remotely for a UK company I am Category 1 (as though I was self employed here in Japan) so I have to sign up to the Basic State Pension - I don't make contributions through Kosei Nenkin.

(Note I do have a private pension plan as well but just wanted to highlight the differences between the UK and Japan basic state pension)

mjm

Roger that.

I think, solely conjecture, that allocation of funds here is likely based on the more frequent occurrence of OAP being members of extended families with their money being basically gravy.

I do not think I could dig up stats to support that but it feels sort of likely,