Does anybody know how someone in a wheelchair can board the Leonardo Express?
Nov 28, 2007, 1:43 pm
#1
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Does anybody know how someone in a wheelchair can board the Leonardo Express?
Serious question.
Getting onto this train was one of the most difficult and painful experiences of my life (and I've had kidney stones).
I saw the website before I got there
http://www.trenitalia.it/en/treni_st...express03.html
Leonardo Express
The Fleet: Specifications and Pictures
Each train has four comfortable UIC X carriages, and seats 278 passengers.
A dedicated area is always available for passengers with mobility difficulties; it has a toilet and reserved seating.
The carriages are towed by the new E 464 locomotives equipped with the most modern systems of traction, safety and control.
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Total no. seats "one class" 272
Special seats for wheelchair users 6
Max. Speed 160 km/h
Rated power of locomotive 3,5 MW
Power-supply 1,5 and 3 KV cc
--
On other webpages a disability sign is always published alongside these trains.
-----
We could find no sign of these carriages or special areas, no assistance was offered, and nobody I asked knew anything about them.
----
Is this just an ugly joke? Or does anyone know the secret procedure for a wheelchair user to access this train?
It's been over a month now and I've just about simmered down enough to enable me to post this. The 'service' is an unforgiveable disgrace, especially as it's a brand new one. Appalling!
Getting onto this train was one of the most difficult and painful experiences of my life (and I've had kidney stones).
I saw the website before I got there
http://www.trenitalia.it/en/treni_st...express03.html
Leonardo Express
The Fleet: Specifications and Pictures
Each train has four comfortable UIC X carriages, and seats 278 passengers.
A dedicated area is always available for passengers with mobility difficulties; it has a toilet and reserved seating.
The carriages are towed by the new E 464 locomotives equipped with the most modern systems of traction, safety and control.
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Total no. seats "one class" 272
Special seats for wheelchair users 6
Max. Speed 160 km/h
Rated power of locomotive 3,5 MW
Power-supply 1,5 and 3 KV cc
--
On other webpages a disability sign is always published alongside these trains.
-----
We could find no sign of these carriages or special areas, no assistance was offered, and nobody I asked knew anything about them.
----
Is this just an ugly joke? Or does anyone know the secret procedure for a wheelchair user to access this train?
It's been over a month now and I've just about simmered down enough to enable me to post this. The 'service' is an unforgiveable disgrace, especially as it's a brand new one. Appalling!
Nov 28, 2007, 10:01 pm
#2
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Posts: 1,472
Its tough to remember because I wasn't looking for this specifically, but I do recall an area at the back of the cars that didn't have any seats. There were lockdown devices on the floor that people could lock their wheelchairs into so that they wouldn't move around when the train moved.
With that being said I have no idea how someone in a wheelchair would use the bathroom aboard the train. Its just too small.
With that being said I have no idea how someone in a wheelchair would use the bathroom aboard the train. Its just too small.
Nov 29, 2007, 8:35 am
#3
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Its tough to remember because I wasn't looking for this specifically, but I do recall an area at the back of the cars that didn't have any seats. There were lockdown devices on the floor that people could lock their wheelchairs into so that they wouldn't move around when the train moved.
With that being said I have no idea how someone in a wheelchair would use the bathroom aboard the train. Its just too small.
With that being said I have no idea how someone in a wheelchair would use the bathroom aboard the train. Its just too small.
I saw one of these areas too. How one could access it remains a total mystery.
Nov 29, 2007, 9:04 am
#4
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I'm sorry you had difficulties but in reviewing the information that you posted, specifically the portion in bold I see no mention of assistance in accessing the train.
Nov 30, 2007, 7:51 am
#5
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If there are wheelchair spaces, it's natural to expect to be able to actually get to them.
Hotels without elevators don't put wheelchair friendly rooms up on the fourth floor and publicise them.
A disability sign next to a facility is an international symbol to say that it can be accessed as well as used. And the symbol is shown clearly with regards to this train next to the timetables and other pages showing information about this train.
If I'm supposed to find a special employee to winch me up or whatever secret method they have to hike a wheelchair onto a train that is 1.5 metres from the platform they should say so. (And I can't even begin to explain how difficult it is to get through that station with the dense crowds that were swarming there when you're in a chair)
----
Does anyone actually know how someone in a wheelchair is supposed to get to these wheelchair designated areas?
Nov 30, 2007, 8:36 am
#6
Moderator: UK and Ireland & Europe
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Biggleswade
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On a quick scout around the Trenitalia website, it seems you can get assistance by requesting it 24 hours in advance. At designated stations, there is a 'Sala Blu' which any passengers needing assistance can use.
The details, however, are scant. It doesn't tell you who to contact or how, just that there are leaflets with more information. There may be more on the Italian site, but I couldn't find it with my limited Italian language skills...
The details, however, are scant. It doesn't tell you who to contact or how, just that there are leaflets with more information. There may be more on the Italian site, but I couldn't find it with my limited Italian language skills...
Nov 30, 2007, 9:25 am
#7
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On a quick scout around the Trenitalia website, it seems you can get assistance by requesting it 24 hours in advance. At designated stations, there is a 'Sala Blu' which any passengers needing assistance can use.
The details, however, are scant. It doesn't tell you who to contact or how, just that there are leaflets with more information. There may be more on the Italian site, but I couldn't find it with my limited Italian language skills...
The details, however, are scant. It doesn't tell you who to contact or how, just that there are leaflets with more information. There may be more on the Italian site, but I couldn't find it with my limited Italian language skills...
Unfortunately the information on the wesbites signalling this service as a modern one, just opened, and with wheelchair places gave out all the wrong signals. Rather than finding an alternative route this seemed the best one. That's why I'm so angry. Spain has high trains too - but not from the main airports, I had no reason to anticipate problems. In fact, if I had asked for information on FT I'm certain people would have shown me the link to the website and said they had seen wheelchair spaces on the train. Until you try it for yourself there is nothing to suggest that you'd run into difficulties.
It's nice to be given a sporting chance with these things - but I don't know how high your IQ would have to be, nor how strong and tireless, nor how much extra time it would take to try and figure this all out as a visitor.
(I actually called a helpline for disabled visitors to Rome before I arrived, but the service I called is no longer being run. )
And I stress again - this is a newly opened service which charges a real premium. I can't imagine anywhere else in the world where a newly opened airport facility would let down the disabled so badly. Vaya verguenza!
Nov 30, 2007, 1:53 pm
#8
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IAD
Programs: United MP
Posts: 7,822
Maybe not hotels, but I've seen places where they have accessible features inside, but no way to get inside. I once went to a bowling alley that had a beautiful ramp to the front door and just inside steps down to the main floor. You never get used to this kind of stupidity.
Dec 2, 2007, 6:17 pm
#9
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: DEN
Posts: 1,962
Looks like you need to arrange for the portable lift ahead of time:
http://www.italiantourism.com/railway.html
and
http://www.trenitalia.com/en/servizi...ili/index.html
Honestly, LapLap, in Europe I *always* assume that it's going to be harder than I think it should be, and that even if I've followed the instructions to the letter, there will still be a problem, and they'll tell me it's my fault.
Disabled Travelers
The Italian railways net is well equipped to help people with disability. More than 150 Italian railway stations have a reception service for disabled travelers. This service must be booked at least 24 hours in advance. There are seats reserved for travelers with disabilities on each Italian train but these seats are not accessible if you can't move from your wheelchair to the seat. There are fully accessible special compartments in first class special wagons. These compartments have space for 2 wheelchairs and 2 ablebodied companions. These compartments are equipped with an accessible toilet too. The assistance with portable lifts is provided by the railways staff at no extra cost.
The Italian railways net is well equipped to help people with disability. More than 150 Italian railway stations have a reception service for disabled travelers. This service must be booked at least 24 hours in advance. There are seats reserved for travelers with disabilities on each Italian train but these seats are not accessible if you can't move from your wheelchair to the seat. There are fully accessible special compartments in first class special wagons. These compartments have space for 2 wheelchairs and 2 ablebodied companions. These compartments are equipped with an accessible toilet too. The assistance with portable lifts is provided by the railways staff at no extra cost.
and
The reference point for all travel needs of disabled customers are the Disabled Assistance Centres, which, on customers' request, organize assistance around a circuit of 225 stations..
The Centres in the 15 main stations, provide these services:
- information
- place bookings
- making wheelchairs available
- guide at the station and escorting to the train
- guide until train leaves the station or to another connecting train
- getting on/off with lift-van for wheelchair customers
- possible hand baggage service, free on request (1 item)
- distribution of information material
Opening hours: every day from 7 to 21
How to ask for the assistance service
* from the Italy-wide helpline on 199 30 30 60
* from the Disabled Assistance Centres (Italian: "CADs")
* by email
Minimum prior notification time for the service
* 1 hour before departure in the time band 08.00-22.00, for the connections between the main stations requested by telephone or from the Disabled Assistance Centres
* 12 hours before departure for other connections between the stations on the assistance circuit
* 24 hours before departure
- for the connections requested by email at the applicable area Assistance Centre;
- for international journeys
The Centres in the 15 main stations, provide these services:
- information
- place bookings
- making wheelchairs available
- guide at the station and escorting to the train
- guide until train leaves the station or to another connecting train
- getting on/off with lift-van for wheelchair customers
- possible hand baggage service, free on request (1 item)
- distribution of information material
Opening hours: every day from 7 to 21
How to ask for the assistance service
* from the Italy-wide helpline on 199 30 30 60
* from the Disabled Assistance Centres (Italian: "CADs")
* by email
Minimum prior notification time for the service
* 1 hour before departure in the time band 08.00-22.00, for the connections between the main stations requested by telephone or from the Disabled Assistance Centres
* 12 hours before departure for other connections between the stations on the assistance circuit
* 24 hours before departure
- for the connections requested by email at the applicable area Assistance Centre;
- for international journeys
Honestly, LapLap, in Europe I *always* assume that it's going to be harder than I think it should be, and that even if I've followed the instructions to the letter, there will still be a problem, and they'll tell me it's my fault.
Dec 2, 2007, 9:45 pm
#10
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
Posts: 18,391
Thank you
Another kind soul showed me this page in the disability forum.
With hindsight it still would have been impossible to arrange travel even if I had seen it.
The railway station was jam packed. My instinct was to try and find an office. However, the sea of people and baggage made it literally impossible to do this.
Even if we had arranged for assistance in advance, the 3 hour flight delay would have ruined any plans.
----
Having gone through all of this, the only suggestion I would have for someone else would be to contact the Sala Dedicata in FCO before travelling to see if they can be an intermediary for you.
I'm still shocked that a new train service servicing an airport would only provide access through some kind of forklift. I wonder if they actually can hoist up 6 people in under 30 minutes. The real joke abut the dedicated disabled seating is that I don't believe they could. When you consider the info about the 6 settings logically it really does make no sense that you'd need to book a winch to get you to them.
----
At least in London when a station says it's accessible it actually is. My wheelchair never came with an instruction manual but this city has never thrown up any really nasty surprises, so I've been able to get out and about without giving into despair. And I know that London lags way behind many other parts of Europe when it comes to access and facilities for the disabled.
But no matter how thorough you are it really is impossible to anticipate every problem and eventuality. Especially when you are making your first trip abroad this way. Having to then effectively second guess the information you do collect in case it is incomplete (as was the case here)... you'd need to be a superhuman to achieve this. I am a seasoned and confident traveller, but the challenges of travelling with a wheelchair are incredible and Rome drove me over the edge. I expected it to be hard (and it was, Tokyo certainly threw up many challenges) but I never expected the obstacles to be completely impossible without all the benefits of hindsight. If I couldn't have walked a few steps Rome would have totally defeated me. I just don't have the intelligence to figure it out as a visitor.
Another kind soul showed me this page in the disability forum.
With hindsight it still would have been impossible to arrange travel even if I had seen it.
The railway station was jam packed. My instinct was to try and find an office. However, the sea of people and baggage made it literally impossible to do this.
Even if we had arranged for assistance in advance, the 3 hour flight delay would have ruined any plans.
----
Having gone through all of this, the only suggestion I would have for someone else would be to contact the Sala Dedicata in FCO before travelling to see if they can be an intermediary for you.
I'm still shocked that a new train service servicing an airport would only provide access through some kind of forklift. I wonder if they actually can hoist up 6 people in under 30 minutes. The real joke abut the dedicated disabled seating is that I don't believe they could. When you consider the info about the 6 settings logically it really does make no sense that you'd need to book a winch to get you to them.
----
At least in London when a station says it's accessible it actually is. My wheelchair never came with an instruction manual but this city has never thrown up any really nasty surprises, so I've been able to get out and about without giving into despair. And I know that London lags way behind many other parts of Europe when it comes to access and facilities for the disabled.
But no matter how thorough you are it really is impossible to anticipate every problem and eventuality. Especially when you are making your first trip abroad this way. Having to then effectively second guess the information you do collect in case it is incomplete (as was the case here)... you'd need to be a superhuman to achieve this. I am a seasoned and confident traveller, but the challenges of travelling with a wheelchair are incredible and Rome drove me over the edge. I expected it to be hard (and it was, Tokyo certainly threw up many challenges) but I never expected the obstacles to be completely impossible without all the benefits of hindsight. If I couldn't have walked a few steps Rome would have totally defeated me. I just don't have the intelligence to figure it out as a visitor.
Last edited by LapLap; Dec 2, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Dec 3, 2007, 8:54 am
#11
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: DEN
Posts: 1,962
And please, please don't think I was saying that you ought to have figured it all out. I know how challenging and frustrating it is, and I thank you for following up on all your experiences.