Venice cruise ship discussion
Jun 19, 2017, 11:18 am
#1
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Venice cruise ship discussion
Yesterday Venice had a referendum on banning cruise ships from Venice, and on banning the dredging of another canal (Project Vittorio Emanuel) that would allow cruise ships to come to Venice through a different route that doesn't pass by San Marco or the Giudecca. The vote was non-binding, in that the government doesn't have to accept it. It was just to get a sense of how the citizens feel.
Results:
Ban cruise ships and ban the dredging of a new canal: 17,874
Allow cruise ships using present route or by dredging a new canal: 126.
http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/r...andi-navi.html
Results:
Ban cruise ships and ban the dredging of a new canal: 17,874
Allow cruise ships using present route or by dredging a new canal: 126.
http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/r...andi-navi.html
Last edited by Perche; Jun 19, 2017 at 3:03 pm
Jun 19, 2017, 12:48 pm
#2
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In this newspaper they include some pictures of yesterday's voting and additional information.
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...ref=hfnvveea-1
Hanno votato 18.105 persone, il 98,72% ha detto “sě”. In 150 hanno voluto esprimere il loro dissenso e mettere un “No” nell’urna.
"18,105 people voted, 98.72% voted yes to a ban on cruise ships. 150 people expressed their dissent and put a no to the ban on their ballot."
There is an embedded 1 minuted video that is the trailer for a TV program shown last night called, "Petrolio, Grandi Navi, Venezia inquinato come Pechino?" (Oil, cruise ships, Venice as polluted as Peking?) It says in the dialog below the title that a cruise ship passing by emits the pollution particles of 5 million cars. The documentary shows such a result, as can be seen on the trailer.
Excerpt from the article.
"It was not an orthodox referendum, but certainly thousands of people from Venice and Mestre decided to confirm their "No" to the presence of cruise ships in the Venetian lagoon. "It's necessary for the Minister of the Interior Delrio to be transparent about what he is doing, and give an account of what projects he is discussing, and what the finances are. It's not possible for the State to act under the table, especially since after 5 years (when a law banning cruise ships actually passed, but was overturned on appeal by the courts) during which they have done nothing to cut the cruise ships out of San Marco Bay, except propose projects devastating to the environment like Contorto or dredging a new Vittorio Emanuele Canal. Now we want to know everything."
Contorto is a plan to build piers on the Lido and have the cruise ships dock out there. Vittorio Emanuele is to create a new opening from the sea into the lagoon, and dredge a new canal from the sea to near the town of Marghera, and let the boats dock there, without having to come near San Marco. This will bring new tidal water flushing into and out of the Bay, and completely change its ecology.
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...ref=hfnvveea-1
Hanno votato 18.105 persone, il 98,72% ha detto “sě”. In 150 hanno voluto esprimere il loro dissenso e mettere un “No” nell’urna.
"18,105 people voted, 98.72% voted yes to a ban on cruise ships. 150 people expressed their dissent and put a no to the ban on their ballot."
There is an embedded 1 minuted video that is the trailer for a TV program shown last night called, "Petrolio, Grandi Navi, Venezia inquinato come Pechino?" (Oil, cruise ships, Venice as polluted as Peking?) It says in the dialog below the title that a cruise ship passing by emits the pollution particles of 5 million cars. The documentary shows such a result, as can be seen on the trailer.
Excerpt from the article.
"It was not an orthodox referendum, but certainly thousands of people from Venice and Mestre decided to confirm their "No" to the presence of cruise ships in the Venetian lagoon. "It's necessary for the Minister of the Interior Delrio to be transparent about what he is doing, and give an account of what projects he is discussing, and what the finances are. It's not possible for the State to act under the table, especially since after 5 years (when a law banning cruise ships actually passed, but was overturned on appeal by the courts) during which they have done nothing to cut the cruise ships out of San Marco Bay, except propose projects devastating to the environment like Contorto or dredging a new Vittorio Emanuele Canal. Now we want to know everything."
Contorto is a plan to build piers on the Lido and have the cruise ships dock out there. Vittorio Emanuele is to create a new opening from the sea into the lagoon, and dredge a new canal from the sea to near the town of Marghera, and let the boats dock there, without having to come near San Marco. This will bring new tidal water flushing into and out of the Bay, and completely change its ecology.
Last edited by Perche; Jun 19, 2017 at 3:03 pm
Jul 14, 2017, 7:22 am
#3
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It looks as if this time a cruise ship ban is really going to happen, since 99% of the people voted in favor of it. Cruise ships were banned a few years ago after Venetians strongly voted for a ban, but federal court quickly overturned it, based on the excuse that Venice didn't provide the cruise ships with an alternative place dock. This time, they did. The Minister of the Interior and Mayor released the new plan. They are going to build two new docking ports in Marghera by 2019, and large cruise ships will have to dock there. They will no longer be allowed to come to Venice.
Marghera is a really ugly, industrial town, mostly making chemicals. If you are in Western Venice or on the Giudecca and the sky is reasonably clear, you can see the belching smoke stacks far away across the water in Marghera. . Sometimes instead of smoke, fire comes out of the smoke stacks. It has to be one of the ugliest cities in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marghe...rghera_R01.jpg
I don't know how they are going to get people from Marghera to Venice. It's about about a 45 minute train or bus ride. Maybe they'll have smaller shuttle boats. The courts won't overturn this one on the basis of a lack of alternatives. The only thing that can thwart the will of the Venetian people this time will be a requirement for an environmental impact study.
The water in the Venetian lagoon is very, very shallow. If you've been there, all over the water you see these wooden things called bricole. They consist of three poles laced together, sticking out of the water. There are about 90,000 of them in the Venetian lagoon. They are there to mark where the mud has been dredged to make an underwater channel deep enough to allow the motorboats and vaporetti to not get stuck in the mud. They are iconic symbols of Venice.
https://venicewiki.org/wiki/Bricole
For a large cruise ship they have to dredge a very, very deep underwater canal. Marghera already has dredged canals for big ships as it's an industrial city, and they have to have a port to ship things in and out. However, there will need to be a new canal dredged to allow the cruise ships in. Since the smoke stacks have been spewing out chemicals that have been falling into the water off of Marghera for decades now, there is concern that the mud below the water off of Marghera may be extremely contaminated. Dredging it might bring the chemical residue in the mud out into the water, which would allow it to spread throughout the lagoon. The only thing that can stop the new ban would be if the environmental impact study shows that it is too dangerous to dredge a new canal off of Marghera. Otherwise, cruise ships sailing along Piazza San Marco will be a thing of the past.
The underwater dredging to allow vaporetti and motorboats to get around is very important, because away from where the bricole are to mark the underwater canals, the water is usually only a foot or two deep. When I kayak out there I have to be very attentive to the tides, because if low tide is coming in even a kayak will be stuck in the mud for six hours until the tide changes. These underwater canals have been credited with several benefits to Venice, in addition to allowing the motorboats and vaporetti to get around.
Venice's historically low crime rate has been attributed to the fact that until they built the one and only bridge to the mainland, it was impossible for a thief to flee from Venice. If they jumped in a boat and tried to flee to the mainland, unless they were a mariner with knowledge of how to read the bricole they would get beached, so there was no real way for a thief to escape.
Venice was one of the world's major powers for centuries, until Napolean finally defeated them and ended the Venetian Republic. The reason they were so invincible is because no one could invade them. The only way to invade was by boat. The invaders would have no idea where the underwater canals were, because Venice didn't start putting the bricole in until the 1400's, but the Venetian navy knew where the underwater channels were. When someone would try to invade they would get stuck in the mud, and out would come the Venetian navy to pick them off like sitting ducks.
For all maritime navigation there have been international standards for centuries, like whether the buoy/marker/bricole means pass to the right or left, based on whether you are heading into open water, or coming back from open water. Except in Venice. When they started putting in the bricole they were concerned that it would help invaders attack them, so to make invasion more difficult they made their own rules of navigation. In some parts of the lagoon you stay to the right of the bricole, then in a few hundred meters you might have to do the opposite. Only a venetian knows the rules.
Hopefully, the problem of dredging underwater canals won't defeat the overwhelmingly popular vote to make cruise ships in Venice a thing of the past.
Marghera is a really ugly, industrial town, mostly making chemicals. If you are in Western Venice or on the Giudecca and the sky is reasonably clear, you can see the belching smoke stacks far away across the water in Marghera. . Sometimes instead of smoke, fire comes out of the smoke stacks. It has to be one of the ugliest cities in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marghe...rghera_R01.jpg
I don't know how they are going to get people from Marghera to Venice. It's about about a 45 minute train or bus ride. Maybe they'll have smaller shuttle boats. The courts won't overturn this one on the basis of a lack of alternatives. The only thing that can thwart the will of the Venetian people this time will be a requirement for an environmental impact study.
The water in the Venetian lagoon is very, very shallow. If you've been there, all over the water you see these wooden things called bricole. They consist of three poles laced together, sticking out of the water. There are about 90,000 of them in the Venetian lagoon. They are there to mark where the mud has been dredged to make an underwater channel deep enough to allow the motorboats and vaporetti to not get stuck in the mud. They are iconic symbols of Venice.
https://venicewiki.org/wiki/Bricole
For a large cruise ship they have to dredge a very, very deep underwater canal. Marghera already has dredged canals for big ships as it's an industrial city, and they have to have a port to ship things in and out. However, there will need to be a new canal dredged to allow the cruise ships in. Since the smoke stacks have been spewing out chemicals that have been falling into the water off of Marghera for decades now, there is concern that the mud below the water off of Marghera may be extremely contaminated. Dredging it might bring the chemical residue in the mud out into the water, which would allow it to spread throughout the lagoon. The only thing that can stop the new ban would be if the environmental impact study shows that it is too dangerous to dredge a new canal off of Marghera. Otherwise, cruise ships sailing along Piazza San Marco will be a thing of the past.
The underwater dredging to allow vaporetti and motorboats to get around is very important, because away from where the bricole are to mark the underwater canals, the water is usually only a foot or two deep. When I kayak out there I have to be very attentive to the tides, because if low tide is coming in even a kayak will be stuck in the mud for six hours until the tide changes. These underwater canals have been credited with several benefits to Venice, in addition to allowing the motorboats and vaporetti to get around.
Venice's historically low crime rate has been attributed to the fact that until they built the one and only bridge to the mainland, it was impossible for a thief to flee from Venice. If they jumped in a boat and tried to flee to the mainland, unless they were a mariner with knowledge of how to read the bricole they would get beached, so there was no real way for a thief to escape.
Venice was one of the world's major powers for centuries, until Napolean finally defeated them and ended the Venetian Republic. The reason they were so invincible is because no one could invade them. The only way to invade was by boat. The invaders would have no idea where the underwater canals were, because Venice didn't start putting the bricole in until the 1400's, but the Venetian navy knew where the underwater channels were. When someone would try to invade they would get stuck in the mud, and out would come the Venetian navy to pick them off like sitting ducks.
For all maritime navigation there have been international standards for centuries, like whether the buoy/marker/bricole means pass to the right or left, based on whether you are heading into open water, or coming back from open water. Except in Venice. When they started putting in the bricole they were concerned that it would help invaders attack them, so to make invasion more difficult they made their own rules of navigation. In some parts of the lagoon you stay to the right of the bricole, then in a few hundred meters you might have to do the opposite. Only a venetian knows the rules.
Hopefully, the problem of dredging underwater canals won't defeat the overwhelmingly popular vote to make cruise ships in Venice a thing of the past.
Aug 1, 2017, 9:00 am
#4
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I was in Venice a week ago and did some extensive kayaking around the lagoon with some Venetians, including one of the most knowledgable and connected person in Venice concerning its its waterways. One of the things we discussed was the decision to appease UNESCO's threat to end Venice's world heritage site status in part because of the havoc caused by cruise ships coming into the lagoon.
Venice had the decision to do so postponed by promising to build two new docks in Marghera where cruise ships will have to dock, so that they no longer can come directly to Venice. From there, cruise ship passengers would have to take small boats to Venice. Venetians have voted several times with about 99% in favor of banning cruise ships from the lagoon.
I found Venetians to be very sanguine about this. They don't believe that the ban is going to happen at all. The new docks in Marghera will just be used to bring in even bigger boats, ones that can't make it into the lagoon right now because they are too large. There is also a lot of anger that dredging an underwater canal to allow giant ships to get to Marghera will require transporting the mud to some place. Marghera used to be where chemical factories were, and the water is so polluted from what came out of smoke stacks for decades, that is it illegal to fish there. If they just dredge out the mud it will release all of the toxins settled in the mud, so now the plan is to pick up the contaminated mud, transport it far out to sea, and dump it out there. Millions of tons of mud. This will cost Venetian cities millions of dollars in tax funds, to benefit private cruise ship companies. The cruise ship business provides no benefit to Venetians.
So, what I thought had been solved, with getting cruise ships banned from Venice in accordance with the recent Venetian vote that was 99% in favor of banning cruise ships, and the governments agreement to abide by it, is not being taken too seriously or hopefully by Venetians.
By the way, as I was kayaking in front of Piazza San Marco, Steve Jobs yacht was parked there. It is enormous, and looks something like an iPhone. It only stayed one day, in part because Venetians were very aggravated about it. Jobs wife was there on it. She had them put chain link fence on the sidewalk in front of the boat so that people couldn't get too close to it, and she could retain her privacy. Venetians who were trying to go about their day to day work life had to walk around the closed off sidewalk so that a visitor could have their privacy, at the expense of the people who live there and pay taxes. There was quite a lot of fuming about this. It's about as long as a football field.
Venice had the decision to do so postponed by promising to build two new docks in Marghera where cruise ships will have to dock, so that they no longer can come directly to Venice. From there, cruise ship passengers would have to take small boats to Venice. Venetians have voted several times with about 99% in favor of banning cruise ships from the lagoon.
I found Venetians to be very sanguine about this. They don't believe that the ban is going to happen at all. The new docks in Marghera will just be used to bring in even bigger boats, ones that can't make it into the lagoon right now because they are too large. There is also a lot of anger that dredging an underwater canal to allow giant ships to get to Marghera will require transporting the mud to some place. Marghera used to be where chemical factories were, and the water is so polluted from what came out of smoke stacks for decades, that is it illegal to fish there. If they just dredge out the mud it will release all of the toxins settled in the mud, so now the plan is to pick up the contaminated mud, transport it far out to sea, and dump it out there. Millions of tons of mud. This will cost Venetian cities millions of dollars in tax funds, to benefit private cruise ship companies. The cruise ship business provides no benefit to Venetians.
So, what I thought had been solved, with getting cruise ships banned from Venice in accordance with the recent Venetian vote that was 99% in favor of banning cruise ships, and the governments agreement to abide by it, is not being taken too seriously or hopefully by Venetians.
By the way, as I was kayaking in front of Piazza San Marco, Steve Jobs yacht was parked there. It is enormous, and looks something like an iPhone. It only stayed one day, in part because Venetians were very aggravated about it. Jobs wife was there on it. She had them put chain link fence on the sidewalk in front of the boat so that people couldn't get too close to it, and she could retain her privacy. Venetians who were trying to go about their day to day work life had to walk around the closed off sidewalk so that a visitor could have their privacy, at the expense of the people who live there and pay taxes. There was quite a lot of fuming about this. It's about as long as a football field.
Last edited by Perche; Aug 1, 2017 at 9:11 am
Aug 2, 2017, 8:52 pm
#5
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I took this photo last weekend. Unfortunately my phone wasn't so accessible, so I missed the part when the cruise ship was totally blocking everything, and just got the tail end of it. The height of the boat is taller than the tallest building in Venice, so people are just looking down as if seeing Venice from a drone. They get off for a few hours to pack into San Marco Square to eat some microwaved food, then say, "I've been to Venice. I didn't like it."
No doubt this is a topic where a lot of smart and experienced people have different and equally valid opinions, but I personally believe that people who have traveled to Italy generally say that Venice was the most romantic, most beautiful, most serene place of all. However, nobody who has seen it from the perspective of the photo below will ever be able to say that. They would have to go to Venice and stay there and experience it, just like visiting any place else in Italy. Layovers don't cut it.
Curated tours by reputable people, whether from NYC, London or wherever, who take you to special places, to do special things, or to special events, who know how to make your experience worth while is a wonderful thing, but visiting Venice the way the people are doing so in the picture I took last Sunday is not the way to do it. If any of the people on that boat say they have been to Venice, I would immediately respond, "No, you have never been there."
No doubt this is a topic where a lot of smart and experienced people have different and equally valid opinions, but I personally believe that people who have traveled to Italy generally say that Venice was the most romantic, most beautiful, most serene place of all. However, nobody who has seen it from the perspective of the photo below will ever be able to say that. They would have to go to Venice and stay there and experience it, just like visiting any place else in Italy. Layovers don't cut it.
Curated tours by reputable people, whether from NYC, London or wherever, who take you to special places, to do special things, or to special events, who know how to make your experience worth while is a wonderful thing, but visiting Venice the way the people are doing so in the picture I took last Sunday is not the way to do it. If any of the people on that boat say they have been to Venice, I would immediately respond, "No, you have never been there."
Nov 8, 2017, 8:06 am
#6
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It is official that cruise ships in front of Venice are banned. There have been meetings about this, and deadlines set about what solution to adopt to keep cruise ships out of Venice. This is something that Venetians want badly, and referenda on banning cruise ships usually pass with 99% voting in favor of the ban.
Cruise ships were banned a few years ago, but a federal court overturned the ban, because it didn't provide any alternative landing spots for the cruise ships. This ban does.
It will require cruise ships above a certain tonnage to land in Marghera, which is a cess pool city of pollution with a bunch of abandoned chemical factories, and water so polluted that it is illegal to fish in it. From their, the people who want to go to the Maritime Station in Venice will have to take some type of smaller, regular boats. The cruise ships themselves won't be able to cross in front Venice any more, unless they are small.
The bad news is that it is going to take four years to get the new docking site ready in Marghera, so we have to live with the monsters for at least a few more years.
Cruise ships were banned a few years ago, but a federal court overturned the ban, because it didn't provide any alternative landing spots for the cruise ships. This ban does.
It will require cruise ships above a certain tonnage to land in Marghera, which is a cess pool city of pollution with a bunch of abandoned chemical factories, and water so polluted that it is illegal to fish in it. From their, the people who want to go to the Maritime Station in Venice will have to take some type of smaller, regular boats. The cruise ships themselves won't be able to cross in front Venice any more, unless they are small.
The bad news is that it is going to take four years to get the new docking site ready in Marghera, so we have to live with the monsters for at least a few more years.
Dec 8, 2017, 9:08 pm
#7
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Those cruise ships are enormous! It's bigger than the building in front of it. I hope I never set foot on one of those!
We recently read something that the average visitor to Venice stays for less than a day and spends $18 while there. My memory may not be exact, but it was under $20. We were shocked by the statics, until it occurred to us that this is likely to be the profile of a cruise ship visitor. With meals and lodging included in the cruise, they might by a little something to remember Venice, or a gelato, and pay an admission fee or two. The poor Venetians are overrun by cheapskate hordes.
We recently read something that the average visitor to Venice stays for less than a day and spends $18 while there. My memory may not be exact, but it was under $20. We were shocked by the statics, until it occurred to us that this is likely to be the profile of a cruise ship visitor. With meals and lodging included in the cruise, they might by a little something to remember Venice, or a gelato, and pay an admission fee or two. The poor Venetians are overrun by cheapskate hordes.
Jun 3, 2019, 2:25 am
#8
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Boat accident in Venice
Here, below, is a collection of videos showing last weekend's accident involving a huge cruise ship and a much, much smaller "tour" boat. Fortunately there were no casualties, I'd say out of pure luck. When I watched a few of them, I remembered several of Perche's posts complaining about the cruise ships in the laguna (actually, the city centre). The videos are from the site of the newspaper "a Repubblica.
Video plus links to others
Video plus links to others
Jun 3, 2019, 3:39 am
#9
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recommend another video
This video is taken from the shore and is much more dramatic:
https://video.repubblica.it/cronaca/.../336162/336758
I have seen these cruise boats in the canal and do not understand why they are permitted? The size and scale has no place in Venezia!
https://video.repubblica.it/cronaca/.../336162/336758
I have seen these cruise boats in the canal and do not understand why they are permitted? The size and scale has no place in Venezia!
Jun 3, 2019, 4:20 am
#10
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The video you posted is the first one in the list in my post, which contains an total of 8 videos in addition to the one "on display"! 
Jun 15, 2019, 9:16 pm
#11
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It was only a matter of time before a cruise ship crashed into the city of Venice. Some type of engine failure, and even the tug boats bringing it couldn't control it from crashing into the city. This is in a very popular area, the San Basilio vaporetto stop on a street called Zattere. I went to school for almost a year just down the block from there. They really need to stop these cruise ships. The protests going on in Venice right now about people who take cruise ships that stop in Venice are at almost riot level. The Italian one in Il Gazzettino is the most riveting video, even if you don't understand the language, you can hear the panic aboard the cruise ship. Venetians want nothing more than for cruise ships, and AirBnB to be banned.
https://www.ilgazzettino.it/nordest/...a-4532171.html
https://www.thelocal.it/20190602/cru...-tourists-flee
https://www.ilgazzettino.it/nordest/...a-4532171.html
Last edited by Perche; Jun 15, 2019 at 9:21 pm
Jun 16, 2019, 6:39 am
#12
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Ciao, Perche!
I was just thinking about this and wondering if Venice was finally going to do something about cruise ships. Are the powers that be making a solution priority? I thought I read some months ago that there was a plan for cruise ships to dock elsewhere (west / southwest of Venice?) and then get the visitors to Venice in some way.
I was just thinking about this and wondering if Venice was finally going to do something about cruise ships. Are the powers that be making a solution priority? I thought I read some months ago that there was a plan for cruise ships to dock elsewhere (west / southwest of Venice?) and then get the visitors to Venice in some way.
Jun 16, 2019, 9:34 pm
#13
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Ciao, Perche!
I was just thinking about this and wondering if Venice was finally going to do something about cruise ships. Are the powers that be making a solution priority? I thought I read some months ago that there was a plan for cruise ships to dock elsewhere (west / southwest of Venice?) and then get the visitors to Venice in some way.
I was just thinking about this and wondering if Venice was finally going to do something about cruise ships. Are the powers that be making a solution priority? I thought I read some months ago that there was a plan for cruise ships to dock elsewhere (west / southwest of Venice?) and then get the visitors to Venice in some way.
Jun 19, 2019, 12:17 pm
#14
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we rented a water facing suite on the lagoon(near arsenal). got up the following morning, and a mid sized cruise had parked out front. could not see anything. the delaware-chesepeake canal ia now 35 feet(BOUT 10 METERS DEEP, THE "BIG CRUISE BOATS will not fit. they need still more depth.
i would think a 40foot trench in a venice canal would be begging for trouble.
i would think a 40foot trench in a venice canal would be begging for trouble.
Last edited by slawecki; Jun 19, 2019 at 12:27 pm
