Venice to Limit Visitors, Turnstiles to get into San Marco?
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
Programs: AA EXP >4 MM, Lifetime Plat
Posts: 2,881
Venice to Limit Visitors, Turnstiles to get into San Marco?
Venice has just been getting killed by tourists who treat it like a theme park, and residents are fleeing in droves. This is what it was like last Sunday:
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...8?ref=search#1
And any other day during high season, which is most of the year:
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...375?ref=search
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...dio-1.15252115
Last year UNESCO told Venice that if it doesn't do something to rein in the tourism it will lose its status as a world heritage site. This would be a big thing. They just named the hills where they grow the grapes to make prosecco a UNESCO site, so for Venice not to be one would be a real slap in the face.
Venice was forced to submit a plan to UNESCO for consideration at its meeting this June 27th. The plan was drafted and much of it approved (some is still under debate), and all or most of it will be submitted to UNESCO. Much of it centers around Piazza San Marco. I've actually seen tourists bring portable stoves and make fires and start cooking shish-kabob in the middle of the Plaza. People lie on the of the stairs of the Basilica and eat take out food. Venice hired 100 new policemen to be in Piazza San Marco starting in June, to enforce better tourists behaviors.
It's a complex, far reaching plan, but here are the basic bones of it.
1. Tassa di sbarco e tornelli in piazza San Marco per proteggere Venezia dal turismo di massa e dare una risposta concreta all'Unesco. "A tax to get into Venice, and turnstiles to get into San Marco Square to protect Venice from mass tourism will give a concrete response to UNESCO."
The most important measure they feel is the new tax or ticket you will have to purchase to get into Venice. There already is a city tax that you pay when you stay in a hotel. Making tourists pay a tax to get into the city is aimed at making day-trippers pay too, and will apply whether you get to Venice by train, cruise ship, vaporetto, water taxi, or any other means. The tax might not always be in effect, but may just kick in on days when there are more than 100,000 visitors. It's not clear to me. The size of the tax which they are calling a "landing fee," will vary day to day, based upon how many tourists are trying to get in.
2. Anche i costi dei vaporetti potrebbero aumentare, con gli stessi parametri, in canal Grande. E poi si pensa di rendere obbligatoria la prenotazione dei servizi. "Also increase the tourist fare for the vaporetto on the Grand Canal when the number of visitors reaches a certain number. They are thinking of requiring tourists to make a reservation to use it." During the summer time the vaporetti are so crowded that local residents have no way to get around and live their day to day life, like shopping, taking kids to school, etc.
3. La seconda novit riguarderebbe l'accesso a piazza San Marco, il punto pi turistico in assoluto. In questo caso si parla di limitare gli ingressi, anche ricorrendo ai tornelli. "The second new thing regards access to Piazza San Marco, the absolute most touristic place. In this case the talk is to limit entrance, even requiring turnstiles." They are talking about experimenting with this in the summer, but there are some legal hurdles.
Uno dei provvedimenti pi attesi sicuramente la limitazione degli accessi nell’area marciana nelle giornate da “bollino rosso”. Prevista per ora solo una sperimentazione. Soluzione che non arriver a breve termine. "The most anticipated change is securing a limitation on the number of people who have access to the San Marco area on red days (when it is already crowded). This will be previewed as an experiment, the solution won't arrive in the short term.
4. Modifiche ipotizzate anche per i terminal dei Gran Turismo, che vanno spostati da San Marco e ricollocati in aree decentrate come Sant’Elena, Castello, Fondamente Nuove. "Move the Grand Tourist Terminal from San Marco to outlying areas like Sant'Elena, Castello, Fondamente Nuove." Tourists coming from Chioggia, from the parking lot, and from the sea shore, land at San Marco. They are going to make them land in other parts of the city.
5. Mentre resta in piedi l'iter per la delibera contro le aperture di nuove attivit take away. Si persa un’occasione, dicono, un provvedimento parziale, che colpisce solo una parte del fenomeno. "Not allowing any more take out food places to open. This one didn't go through, too many protested saying it is only a partial solution. This is a lost opportunity." This is a big problem. There are so many bridges to cross in Venice. Sometimes the bridges are completely blocked by tourists sitting on the steps eating sandwiches, pizza, shish kabob, etc, that you can't cross the bridges without practically stepping on them.
6. Altre soluzioni: la Ztl pedonale (ma serve una modifica legislativa), la polizia turistica (100 agenti ausiliari a contratto stagionale in arrivo), ma soprattutto l'alternativa al canale della Giudecca per le grandi navi. "Other solutions, a pedestrian ZTL, or making it prohibited to allow pedestrian tourists to enter certain parts of the city," so the residents can have their neighborhoods back. Seasonally hiring 100 tourist police to police the tourists around San Marco Piazza (already done). Over everything, finding an alternative to the Giudecca Canal for cruise ships coming into Venice.
7. The debate about these changes has been accelerated because the deadline to submit the changes to UNESCO is next Thursday, and by the pressure exerted by public opinion.
8. Affittanze. La prossima settimana dovrebbe essere approvata dal Consiglio la delibera che chiede alla Regione di modificare la Legge sul turismo che prevede oggi un cambio d’uso “automatico” da residenza a turismo. Allo studio e in giunta gioved anche un nuovo regolamento che preveda norme pi rigide per i cambi d’uso. Dovranno sempre passare per la giunta e non dovranno essere automatici. "Rentals. Next week the Counsel should approve modification of the laws concerning converting apartments to tourist rentals (AirBnb, etc.), which right now you can do automatically. They expect new rigid standards to be approved next Thursday. The owner of the apartment will have to get approval from a Board, it will no longer be automatic." Reeling in AirBnb in Italy is long, long overdue.
9. La richiesta che viene dalle isole anche quella di limitare i passaggi dei mezzi troppo grandi e dotati di megafono. "The request from the islands is also to limit large boats that use megaphones." These boats really disturb the peace by using loudspeakers to point out significant sites.
10. Proposta delle categorie quella di ripristinare il collegamento per il rio delle Galeazze, attraverso l’Arsenale. Si eviterebbe il periplo di migliaia di motoscafi (taxi e Actv) per Sant’Elena. "Open a link from Rio delle Galeazze that crosses Arsenale so that thousands of water taxis and vaporetti don't have to drive by Sant'Elena." That's the most peaceful neighborhood in Castello, where many residents live.
11. Navi. Ministero, Porto e Comune sembrano decisi a portare avanti il progetto del Vittorio Emanuele. "Cruise ships. The port and commune seems to have decided to go ahead with the project Vittorio Emanuele." This is basically a project to keep cruise ships from getting anywhere near San Marco or using the Giudecca Canal.
12. Pi difficile intervenire sul numero dei giornalieri, in continuo aumento. Nuovo assalto previsto per i ponti del 25 aprile del 1 maggio, dopo quello di Pasqua. Situazione ormai ad alto rischio. "The number of days when it is too difficult to intervene continues to increase. A new assault on the bridges of Venice is predicted for April 25th (San Marco day,) May 1st, and after Easter. By now the situation in Venice is at high risk.
http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/s...17-unesco.html
http://nuova Venezia.gelocal.it/vene...375?ref=search
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...8?ref=search#1
And any other day during high season, which is most of the year:
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...375?ref=search
http://nuovavenezia.gelocal.it/venez...dio-1.15252115
Last year UNESCO told Venice that if it doesn't do something to rein in the tourism it will lose its status as a world heritage site. This would be a big thing. They just named the hills where they grow the grapes to make prosecco a UNESCO site, so for Venice not to be one would be a real slap in the face.
Venice was forced to submit a plan to UNESCO for consideration at its meeting this June 27th. The plan was drafted and much of it approved (some is still under debate), and all or most of it will be submitted to UNESCO. Much of it centers around Piazza San Marco. I've actually seen tourists bring portable stoves and make fires and start cooking shish-kabob in the middle of the Plaza. People lie on the of the stairs of the Basilica and eat take out food. Venice hired 100 new policemen to be in Piazza San Marco starting in June, to enforce better tourists behaviors.
It's a complex, far reaching plan, but here are the basic bones of it.
1. Tassa di sbarco e tornelli in piazza San Marco per proteggere Venezia dal turismo di massa e dare una risposta concreta all'Unesco. "A tax to get into Venice, and turnstiles to get into San Marco Square to protect Venice from mass tourism will give a concrete response to UNESCO."
The most important measure they feel is the new tax or ticket you will have to purchase to get into Venice. There already is a city tax that you pay when you stay in a hotel. Making tourists pay a tax to get into the city is aimed at making day-trippers pay too, and will apply whether you get to Venice by train, cruise ship, vaporetto, water taxi, or any other means. The tax might not always be in effect, but may just kick in on days when there are more than 100,000 visitors. It's not clear to me. The size of the tax which they are calling a "landing fee," will vary day to day, based upon how many tourists are trying to get in.
2. Anche i costi dei vaporetti potrebbero aumentare, con gli stessi parametri, in canal Grande. E poi si pensa di rendere obbligatoria la prenotazione dei servizi. "Also increase the tourist fare for the vaporetto on the Grand Canal when the number of visitors reaches a certain number. They are thinking of requiring tourists to make a reservation to use it." During the summer time the vaporetti are so crowded that local residents have no way to get around and live their day to day life, like shopping, taking kids to school, etc.
3. La seconda novit riguarderebbe l'accesso a piazza San Marco, il punto pi turistico in assoluto. In questo caso si parla di limitare gli ingressi, anche ricorrendo ai tornelli. "The second new thing regards access to Piazza San Marco, the absolute most touristic place. In this case the talk is to limit entrance, even requiring turnstiles." They are talking about experimenting with this in the summer, but there are some legal hurdles.
Uno dei provvedimenti pi attesi sicuramente la limitazione degli accessi nell’area marciana nelle giornate da “bollino rosso”. Prevista per ora solo una sperimentazione. Soluzione che non arriver a breve termine. "The most anticipated change is securing a limitation on the number of people who have access to the San Marco area on red days (when it is already crowded). This will be previewed as an experiment, the solution won't arrive in the short term.
4. Modifiche ipotizzate anche per i terminal dei Gran Turismo, che vanno spostati da San Marco e ricollocati in aree decentrate come Sant’Elena, Castello, Fondamente Nuove. "Move the Grand Tourist Terminal from San Marco to outlying areas like Sant'Elena, Castello, Fondamente Nuove." Tourists coming from Chioggia, from the parking lot, and from the sea shore, land at San Marco. They are going to make them land in other parts of the city.
5. Mentre resta in piedi l'iter per la delibera contro le aperture di nuove attivit take away. Si persa un’occasione, dicono, un provvedimento parziale, che colpisce solo una parte del fenomeno. "Not allowing any more take out food places to open. This one didn't go through, too many protested saying it is only a partial solution. This is a lost opportunity." This is a big problem. There are so many bridges to cross in Venice. Sometimes the bridges are completely blocked by tourists sitting on the steps eating sandwiches, pizza, shish kabob, etc, that you can't cross the bridges without practically stepping on them.
6. Altre soluzioni: la Ztl pedonale (ma serve una modifica legislativa), la polizia turistica (100 agenti ausiliari a contratto stagionale in arrivo), ma soprattutto l'alternativa al canale della Giudecca per le grandi navi. "Other solutions, a pedestrian ZTL, or making it prohibited to allow pedestrian tourists to enter certain parts of the city," so the residents can have their neighborhoods back. Seasonally hiring 100 tourist police to police the tourists around San Marco Piazza (already done). Over everything, finding an alternative to the Giudecca Canal for cruise ships coming into Venice.
7. The debate about these changes has been accelerated because the deadline to submit the changes to UNESCO is next Thursday, and by the pressure exerted by public opinion.
8. Affittanze. La prossima settimana dovrebbe essere approvata dal Consiglio la delibera che chiede alla Regione di modificare la Legge sul turismo che prevede oggi un cambio d’uso “automatico” da residenza a turismo. Allo studio e in giunta gioved anche un nuovo regolamento che preveda norme pi rigide per i cambi d’uso. Dovranno sempre passare per la giunta e non dovranno essere automatici. "Rentals. Next week the Counsel should approve modification of the laws concerning converting apartments to tourist rentals (AirBnb, etc.), which right now you can do automatically. They expect new rigid standards to be approved next Thursday. The owner of the apartment will have to get approval from a Board, it will no longer be automatic." Reeling in AirBnb in Italy is long, long overdue.
9. La richiesta che viene dalle isole anche quella di limitare i passaggi dei mezzi troppo grandi e dotati di megafono. "The request from the islands is also to limit large boats that use megaphones." These boats really disturb the peace by using loudspeakers to point out significant sites.
10. Proposta delle categorie quella di ripristinare il collegamento per il rio delle Galeazze, attraverso l’Arsenale. Si eviterebbe il periplo di migliaia di motoscafi (taxi e Actv) per Sant’Elena. "Open a link from Rio delle Galeazze that crosses Arsenale so that thousands of water taxis and vaporetti don't have to drive by Sant'Elena." That's the most peaceful neighborhood in Castello, where many residents live.
11. Navi. Ministero, Porto e Comune sembrano decisi a portare avanti il progetto del Vittorio Emanuele. "Cruise ships. The port and commune seems to have decided to go ahead with the project Vittorio Emanuele." This is basically a project to keep cruise ships from getting anywhere near San Marco or using the Giudecca Canal.
12. Pi difficile intervenire sul numero dei giornalieri, in continuo aumento. Nuovo assalto previsto per i ponti del 25 aprile del 1 maggio, dopo quello di Pasqua. Situazione ormai ad alto rischio. "The number of days when it is too difficult to intervene continues to increase. A new assault on the bridges of Venice is predicted for April 25th (San Marco day,) May 1st, and after Easter. By now the situation in Venice is at high risk.
http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/s...17-unesco.html
http://nuova Venezia.gelocal.it/vene...375?ref=search
Last edited by Perche; Apr 27, 2017 at 6:51 pm
#2
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,203
is this a done deal (90%+ probability) or just a proposal which may or may not get implemented - similar to what happened with Cinque Tere post?
Shouldnt title be "Proposal for Venice to Limit Visitors, Turnstiles to get into at San Marco?"
A definitive sounding thread can mislead FTers.
Plus, when it comes to Italy, a lot of official sounding news items never materialize.
Remember how certain it was few years ago that Cruise Ships would be banned.?
or reopening of Lover's Lane is just around the corner?
(Thanks for the photos though - I hate going to Venice on a day trip in high season and used your pix to discourage family from going to Venice in summer)
Shouldnt title be "Proposal for Venice to Limit Visitors, Turnstiles to get into at San Marco?"
A definitive sounding thread can mislead FTers.
Plus, when it comes to Italy, a lot of official sounding news items never materialize.
Remember how certain it was few years ago that Cruise Ships would be banned.?
or reopening of Lover's Lane is just around the corner?
(Thanks for the photos though - I hate going to Venice on a day trip in high season and used your pix to discourage family from going to Venice in summer)
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,261
I agree with desi in terms of titling. Once the new rules are actually in place, a comprehensive sticky should be prominent.
As to the proposals, I actually cannot believe the behemoths are still allowed to cruise through metro Venice and blast their tinny loudspeakers. The worst thing I ever experienced in Venice was strolling along the front and being - let's call it what it is - assaulted by a distorted rendition of "Con te Partiro" being blasted through the lousy PA horns on the deck of the ship of fools. Someone must have thought it was romantic. It was deplorable.
I also think the cruisers are the single biggest component of the overcrowding of Venice. I say this because if you took the same picture of San Marco that's in the article after 6 or 7 pm, when the cruisers go back to the boat for dinner, the contrast in crowding would be remarkable. Btw, I also put the evisceration of the 5 villages in Cinque Terre, most unfortunately, poor Vernazza, at the feet of cruisers as well.
Unrestrained conversion of properties to short term rentals (Airbnb) present significant quality of life issues to Venice, but considering how empty the city gets after the cruisers leave, overcrowding isn't something I lay at their feet.
As to the proposals, I actually cannot believe the behemoths are still allowed to cruise through metro Venice and blast their tinny loudspeakers. The worst thing I ever experienced in Venice was strolling along the front and being - let's call it what it is - assaulted by a distorted rendition of "Con te Partiro" being blasted through the lousy PA horns on the deck of the ship of fools. Someone must have thought it was romantic. It was deplorable.
I also think the cruisers are the single biggest component of the overcrowding of Venice. I say this because if you took the same picture of San Marco that's in the article after 6 or 7 pm, when the cruisers go back to the boat for dinner, the contrast in crowding would be remarkable. Btw, I also put the evisceration of the 5 villages in Cinque Terre, most unfortunately, poor Vernazza, at the feet of cruisers as well.
Unrestrained conversion of properties to short term rentals (Airbnb) present significant quality of life issues to Venice, but considering how empty the city gets after the cruisers leave, overcrowding isn't something I lay at their feet.
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
Programs: AA EXP >4 MM, Lifetime Plat
Posts: 2,881
is this a done deal (90%+ probability) or just a proposal which may or may not get implemented - similar to what happened with Cinque Tere post?
Shouldnt title be "Proposal for Venice to Limit Visitors, Turnstiles to get into at San Marco?"
A definitive sounding thread can mislead FTers.
Plus, when it comes to Italy, a lot of official sounding news items never materialize.
Remember how certain it was few years ago that Cruise Ships would be banned.?
or reopening of Lover's Lane is just around the corner?
(Thanks for the photos though - I hate going to Venice on a day trip in high season and used your pix to discourage family from going to Venice in summer)
Shouldnt title be "Proposal for Venice to Limit Visitors, Turnstiles to get into at San Marco?"
A definitive sounding thread can mislead FTers.
Plus, when it comes to Italy, a lot of official sounding news items never materialize.
Remember how certain it was few years ago that Cruise Ships would be banned.?
or reopening of Lover's Lane is just around the corner?
(Thanks for the photos though - I hate going to Venice on a day trip in high season and used your pix to discourage family from going to Venice in summer)
Last edited by Perche; Apr 27, 2017 at 1:16 pm
#5
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Left
Programs: FT
Posts: 7,285
I think that I got lucky in that when I visit next month, since it is midweek, there is only 1 large ship in port although if it was two days earlier, it was a lot more.
Someone told me about the documentary Venice Syndrome. I am afraid to watch it before our trip.
My wife already feels bad that she is visiting and potentially part of the problem although we are actually spending money in a hotel and will be going to restaurants for dinner...settled on Corte Sconta and Osteria Oliva Nera the second night of our trip...
Someone told me about the documentary Venice Syndrome. I am afraid to watch it before our trip.
My wife already feels bad that she is visiting and potentially part of the problem although we are actually spending money in a hotel and will be going to restaurants for dinner...settled on Corte Sconta and Osteria Oliva Nera the second night of our trip...
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SFO, VCE
Programs: AA EXP >4 MM, Lifetime Plat
Posts: 2,881
I think that I got lucky in that when I visit next month, since it is midweek, there is only 1 large ship in port although if it was two days earlier, it was a lot more.
Someone told me about the documentary Venice Syndrome. I am afraid to watch it before our trip.
My wife already feels bad that she is visiting and potentially part of the problem although we are actually spending money in a hotel and will be going to restaurants for dinner...settled on Corte Sconta and Osteria Oliva Nera the second night of our trip...
Someone told me about the documentary Venice Syndrome. I am afraid to watch it before our trip.
My wife already feels bad that she is visiting and potentially part of the problem although we are actually spending money in a hotel and will be going to restaurants for dinner...settled on Corte Sconta and Osteria Oliva Nera the second night of our trip...
#8
Moderator: Delta SkyMiles, Luxury Hotels, TravelBuzz! and Italy
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 26,513
That photo is what one encounters walking out of the Danieli during high season. It is horrifying.
#9
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,261
But that photo is also like walking out of the Plaza in NYC during Xmas. And that's considered festive.
#10
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It is also directed at cruise ships. A cruise ship going by Venice emits the air pollution of about 15,000 cars, and so many come to Venice since the boom in cruise ships. Venice used to have the cleanest air in Italy because there are no cars or wood burning stoves. The most polluted cities were always Turin, Milan, Rome, Florence, and Bologna. Now, Venice is sometimes ranked as having the second worst air in Italy, mainly due to cruise ships. In fact, Venice is in the process of switching to electric vaporetti because the air is so polluted, and already deployed their first one.
It's not certain how much of this will be enacted. Some, maybe most, but not all. Enacting a ban on visitors will be the hardest one to do. Plus, they are really targeting Piazza San Marco. For some reason, everybody goes there, and walks to the Rialto Bridge, or vice versa. Often, if you go 2-3 blocks away, the streets can be empty, even during the summer.
I was there during Carnevale this year, one of the busiest times of the year.
1. Street near Piazza San Marco
2. Kids playing on a trampoline in a regular neighborhood a few blocks away.
3. Street where I rented an apartment.
4. Campo Santa Maria Formosa, a five minute walk from San Marco.
The crowds shouldn't worry anyone, just stay out of the tourist zone.
#11
Join Date: Oct 2007
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thanks. I do plan to make sure to get some good directions. At least it's close to our hotel.
#12
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,203
UNESCO has no enforcement authority.
Since Venice MAY have to do something concrete, why not wait until concrete has solidified (especially given Italy's track record with past pronouncements of similar nature)
Best time to enjoy Venice is between 7 AM and 10 AM (after 9 PM is not bad either) and best place is back street blocks area away from San Marco and Rialto.
#13
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Title come across as question mark is for the turnstile part while assertive statement before the comma looks like done deal.
UNESCO has no enforcement authority.
Since Venice MAY have to do something concrete, why not wait until concrete has solidified (especially given Italy's track record with past pronouncements of similar nature)
Best time to enjoy Venice is between 7 AM and 10 AM (after 9 PM is not bad either) and best place is back street blocks area away from San Marco and Rialto.
UNESCO has no enforcement authority.
Since Venice MAY have to do something concrete, why not wait until concrete has solidified (especially given Italy's track record with past pronouncements of similar nature)
Best time to enjoy Venice is between 7 AM and 10 AM (after 9 PM is not bad either) and best place is back street blocks area away from San Marco and Rialto.
Headline today:
Misure per il governo del turismo a Venezia
Il Comune "mette in riga" i flussi turistici: accessi controllati a San Marco e aree ristoro
Approvata la delibera in risposta ai rilievi dell'Unesco: campagna informativa sui social, prenotazioni "intelligenti", tutela della residenzialit e stretta sulle locazioni turistiche
"Measures to govern tourism in Venice
The Commune straightens out the influx of tourists: control access to San Marco and restored historical areas. Approved, the deliberations in response to UNESCO: a social information campaign, intelligent reservation system, protection of local residents, and strict control over the tourist locations."
Venice says it is going to do this. The votes are passed. I don't think I should hide it from FT members because they might not like the news. Does Italy govern erratically? Yes, almost as erratically as the USA. Health care will be changed, then it's not, etc. There's still no reason why headlines have to be hidden from people. The headline of this post was the headline of the newspaper article. I added a question mark.
These measures should not be taken to mean that Venice doesn't want tourists. This will work for the benefit of the tourists. Tourists are referred to as "resources." They are the main resources that Venice has, and they protect them, just like city and country protects its resources. This is not to crack down on tourists, it's to make their experience better, and to make sure that people want to visit Venice for centuries to come.
#15
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