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Uber Banned in Italy - Will Appeal

Uber Banned in Italy - Will Appeal

Old Apr 11, 2017, 1:45 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by ckendall
Why are rates so much higher on the weekend?
Because Italians take their holidays and family time seriously. Working on the weekend is not considered normal, so you have to pay extra for someone to voluntarily do that. It's a major reason for why Italians were just rated as the healthiest population in the world, where the average person lives well into their 80's.

It's a different country. You go there to learn some things from their culture, that might benefit you, not to expect and compare things to the USA.

i can imagine a typical tourist from the USA getting all steamed up because an Italian cab driver charged them an extra 2 euros for extracting them from their family on Sunday morning, when they normally wake up late, go to church, and then go for a walk with their family, and instead have to take them to the airport, only for the tourist to think they got ripped off because they had to pay an extra 2 euros for the weekend fee, which is very clearly published in all taxis.

If you don't want to pay the weekend surcharge for separating the taxi driver from his family, you can always take the train or the bus. It's all posted and visible outside the taxi before you get in.
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Old Apr 11, 2017, 2:18 pm
  #17  
 
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I've never had a bad taxi driver in Italy. I also don't think the rates are bad. I prefer Uber, though, because I can hail and track through the app, I don't start paying until they show up, and I never need to worry about cash.

In some US cities, regular cabs are integrated into Uber, probably a licensing requirement from the city or something. I'd happily take that in Italy. I'm sure there will be a compromise somewhere.
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Old Apr 11, 2017, 7:57 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by PWMTrav
I've never had a bad taxi driver in Italy. I also don't think the rates are bad. I prefer Uber, though, because I can hail and track through the app, I don't start paying until they show up, and I never need to worry about cash.

In some US cities, regular cabs are integrated into Uber, probably a licensing requirement from the city or something. I'd happily take that in Italy. I'm sure there will be a compromise somewhere.
Exactly. This is not the end of the story, but Uber like AirBnb and similar companies, are too disruptive because they don't take into account the country they are actually trying to work in, as in Italy.

Just look at the video of the CEO of Uber who actually had to take a Uber, and how he treated his own employee.

I'm not going to sit in judgement of that. There are new technologies. But a company like Uber in Holland can't just sweep 700,000 taxi drivers out of a job. It costs tens of thousands to get a taxi cab medallion/license in Rome. A Uber driver goes to the nearest small town and pays three dollars for a drivers license, and then goes and picks up fares wherever they want, including in Rome.

In Rome, where a taxi driver can go, is very restricted. They cannot roam around the city, waiting for someone to wave them down for a fare, they must find the nearest taxi stand, and get in the back of the line.

Uber drivers were able to go wherever their app told them to go, while the taxi cab driver who paid $300,000 for their license, was prohibited from going to a hotel one block away. I wouldn't be sorry if he started the meter at take off and you had to pay an extra dollar, because he'd probably been waiting there for 3 hours, and that's just their system. It's not the USA.

I just landed back in San Francisco and I had a voice mail from the head of Blacklane auto, because I had posted something negative here. His area code listed him as not being in Bakersfield, but being in Atlanta, Georgia, which was a sham number because it directed me to Berlin. This was two days after I called, saying I had a concern.

When you are in Italy and you have a problem with a taxi, you can just take the next taxi, and you don't have to call Atlanta, Georgia, to get redirected to someone in Berlin, Germany.

When people ask, "what is the best Roman car service," I'll say it once again - there aren't any. You are hiring someone from Berlin, Atlantic City New Jersey, or somewhere in the Philippines. There are probably a few, but who knows? Not someone who has been to Italy once or twice.

You should either take a taxi, or let your hotel arrange your car. If the car isn't there, as has happened to me twice before I understood the situation, you can call the hotel, and they will make it right. Or you can try calling Blacklane in Berlin - I left them an urgent message to be able to respond to this query, and it took them 3 days to respond, and the Atlanta, Georgia area code just forwarded me to Berlin.

When in Italy, you are not going to do well with Uber, which is based in Holland, or any of that. To me, it is ridiculous to hire a car service based in Berlin or Holland, when taxi cabs from Rome airport to the city are very simple: 48 euros, no tip. If you have a problem, you don't have to call Germany, New Jersey, or South Carolina.

Last edited by Perche; Apr 12, 2017 at 8:51 am
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Old Apr 12, 2017, 7:17 pm
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Perche
Exactly. This is not the end of the story, but Uber like AirBnb and similar companies, are too disruptive because they don't take into account the country they are actually trying to work in, as in Italy.

Just look at the video of the CEO of Uber who actually had to take a Uber, and how he treated his own employee. Uber CEO Kalanick Argues With Driver Over Falling Fares - YouTube

I'm not going to sit in judgement of that. There are new technologies. But a company like Uber in Holland can't just sweep 700,000 taxi drivers out of a job. It costs tens of thousands to get a taxi cab medallion/license in Rome. A Uber driver goes to the nearest small town and pays three dollars for a drivers license, and then goes and picks up fares wherever they want, including in Rome.

In Rome, where a taxi driver can go, is very restricted. They cannot roam around the city, waiting for someone to wave them down for a fare, they must find the nearest taxi stand, and get in the back of the line.

Uber drivers were able to go wherever their app told them to go, while the taxi cab driver who paid $300,000 for their license, was prohibited from going to a hotel one block away. I wouldn't be sorry if he started the meter at take off and you had to pay an extra dollar, because he'd probably been waiting there for 3 hours, and that's just their system. It's not the USA.

I just landed back in San Francisco and I had a voice mail from the head of Blacklane auto, because I had posted something negative here. His area code listed him as not being in Bakersfield, but being in Atlanta, Georgia, which was a sham number because it directed me to Berlin. This was two days after I called, saying I had a concern.

When you are in Italy and you have a problem with a taxi, you can just take the next taxi, and you don't have to call Atlanta, Georgia, to get redirected to someone in Berlin, Germany.

When people ask, "what is the best Roman car service," I'll say it once again - there aren't any. You are hiring someone from Berlin, Atlantic City New Jersey, or somewhere in the Philippines. There are probably a few, but who knows? Not someone who has been to Italy once or twice.

You should either take a taxi, or let your hotel arrange your car. If the car isn't there, as has happened to me twice before I understood the situation, you can call the hotel, and they will make it right. Or you can try calling Blacklane in Berlin - I left them an urgent message to be able to respond to this query, and it took them 3 days to respond, and the Atlanta, Georgia area code just forwarded me to Berlin.

When in Italy, you are not going to do well with Uber, which is based in Holland, or any of that. To me, it is ridiculous to hire a car service based in Berlin or Holland, when taxi cabs from Rome airport to the city are very simple: 48 euros, no tip. If you have a problem, you don't have to call Germany, New Jersey, or South Carolina.
I don't need to pay more because I don't have 10 Euros in change if I use a Uber.

No Uber driver is going to try the 'fake 10 Euro note' gag

And on Uber, its impossible to be charged the 'foreigner tax'. You don't need to speak Italian. You can't be overcharged. You don't need change.

---

If I have a problem....how do I, an English speaking foreigner even complain?

The Italian taxi app in Florence doesn't even support English.

---

For me its like this...European authorities have been insanely lax in policing their taxi drivers...that's why people want to use Uber.
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Old Apr 15, 2017, 10:45 am
  #20  
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Uber just won a temporary reversal of the ban, until the final court ruling, so they are on the road again, except Uber Pop, which has banned for years because it had policies that encouraged unauthorized drivers. Instead of having to close this Monday Uber Black can operate until the final appeal is heard on May 5th. The decision will usually come a few weeks after.

Last edited by Perche; Apr 15, 2017 at 1:29 pm
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Old Apr 15, 2017, 1:14 pm
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by TominLazybrook
...If I have a problem....how do I, an English speaking foreigner even complain?...
How do I, a Greek speaking foreigner complain in NYC? What about Americans learning a second or even third language?

PS I obviously don't mean the ~38 million Americans with Spanish as their first language.
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Old Apr 16, 2017, 10:57 am
  #22  
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In an interview in an Italian paper today, Uber basically pled guilty as charged, and promised to change. In the same way in this Forum in another thread, people agreed that Starbucks cannot come to Italy and use its American business model. Italy is a different country. The rulings against Uber have all cited moral grounds, because Italy has different customs from the USA. Starbucks may not put the corner bar out of business, but Uber has aggressively worked to put Italian taxi drivers out of business.

http://www.repubblica.it/economia/20...-C6-P7-S1.6-T1

Headline
"Il responsabile per il Sud Europa: "Il modello americano qui non sta funzionando. Si possono studiare degli ammortizzatori per compensare le licenze comprate a caro prezzo"

"Head of Uber for Southern Europe: The American model doesn't function here. We should study to find a way to ease the blow and compensate taxi drivers who have to pay a very high price to get a license to drive."

(Note: A Uber driver just gets a cursory background check and vehicle inspection, and is on their way, while a licensed taxi driver has to take classes, pass an exam, and has to pay an extremely large sum for their license, depending on the city. In Rome it is over 230,000 euros, and a driver makes about 3,000 euros per month).

Paraphrased excerpts of the interview follow:

ROMA. The Tribunal of Justice meets in Rome on May 5th, when the fate of Uber in Italy will be decided. The protests against unfair competition started in Milan in March 2013, and was supposed to finish today at midnight, with Uber being banned. Last Friday the court granted them an appeal to operate pending the May decision. Everyone has been silent about the fact that Uber continues to lose billions of dollars a year and has been deeply in the red for years. (Note: in essence, Uber takes money from investors and uses the investors' money to subsidize the rides, thereby keeping them cheap enough to put taxis out of business. Uber's losses are usually greater than 100% of their revenue, and have shown no sign of declining over the years.)

Charles Loret, a 34 year old Spaniard who heads Uber for Southern Europe said, "It's a paradox that a country flooded with tourism where it is important to reduce traffic has chosen not to resolve the problem, and is defending the interests of a few, giving a blow to the quality of life to all."

The same thing happened in Barcelona. "But there we increased the cost of the licenses to our drivers to make it more equitable and in the next few months we will launch a new service there. Italy runs the risk of remaining behind."

Uber has often been accused of ignoring the rules, but in the past year he says the company has changed a lot, especially in Europe. "When countries ruled against Uber and banned us, it was due to our own mistakes. We wanted to use the same model that we used in the USA. We made a lot of mistakes, but now in Spain and in Italy we are working to carry out our activities while taking into account licensed taxi drivers. The same in France.

"The Courts of Justice will make decisions on the merits. The decree of Milleproroghe (a deal made a few years ago by which Uber agreed to work with the Italian government to establish working rules that were fair to Italian taxi drivers, but this never happened.) stabilized things so that all of Uber in Italy doesn't have to return to the garage. It is not right to just claim Uber is unorthodox."

Still, May 5th may stop them. "If that happens, we will search for a new way to return to the market. The mobility sector must evolve, the citizens want it. This isn't just about Uber, it's about embracing new models, augmenting competition, reducing traffic, pollution, and costs. In Spain and in Portugal the government didn't try to blackmail us. Italy has to decide if it wants to remain in the past."

In San Francisco, where Uber and Lyft are strongest, the major taxi company, Yellow Cabs, is now on the brink of bankruptcy. "In San Francisco the prices have fallen 70% and more people use drivers now. We created jobs and furnished a service to the citizens. The difference is that in Italy we still have the time to manage the situation correctly. What does it matter if the car is white, yellow, or black? What matters is that all drivers can work and make a salary to support their family. I'm sure there's a way to resolve the problem of how Italian taxi drivers pay an extremely high price for a license to be a driver. In expanding markets we can study how countries helped absorb the shock in Mexico and in Australia."

In the last few months Uber has had to face multiple accusations of sexism from an ex-employee Susan Fowler, top managers have been thrown out, and there was the Grayball scandal (For years Uber engaged in a worldwide program to deceive local authorities by modifying their app in areas where they were under investigation, or had been banned. If someone they thought was investigating them used their app to call a car, the app would show those little cars seemingly driving towards them, but no such car would come. Uber was able to somehow identify the people who were investigating them in cities and countries throughout the world. The scandal was exposed when several employees leaked documents to the media, and it was found that Uber had modified their app to thwart investigators in Portland (where Uber was banned), and many other cities including Boston, Paris, Las Vegas, Austin, Philadelphia, Tampa, and in Australia, China, South Korea, India, Kenya, and in many other countries.)

"When I joined Uber 3 years ago, we grew very quickly, and it's not easy to control everything. We took a lot of bad steps, as with what happened with Susan Fowler. Those mistakes will not be repeated. We are trying to identify the responsible people so that this doesn't happen again. This is an opportunity for us to reflect and improve, and develop into a company that can produce profits and operate anywhere, including in Italy."

Last edited by Perche; Apr 16, 2017 at 6:33 pm
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Old Apr 18, 2017, 12:13 pm
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by Perche
In an interview in an Italian paper today, Uber basically pled guilty as charged, and promised to change. In the same way in this Forum in another thread, people agreed that Starbucks cannot come to Italy and use its American business model. Italy is a different country. The rulings against Uber have all cited moral grounds, because Italy has different customs from the USA. Starbucks may not put the corner bar out of business, but Uber has aggressively worked to put Italian taxi drivers out of business.
Just another perspective to consider: I don't think Italy's taxi companies (at least in the large cities) are as bad as they are in large US cities. In Italy, they're mostly fairly priced and the drivers are pretty good, BUT there's a convenience issue that Uber addresses and is why they still get traction in Italy. Personally, here's what I want, and why I use Uber. Others can weigh in. I want to:

  • Hail from an app
  • Pay with a credit card, 100% of the time if I desire
  • Know when I'm getting picked up
  • Know what it will cost, within a couple of euro

Uber does all of that, and to me, those are bigger differentiators than lower fares. Uber could charge 10% over the cab fare in any given city and I'd still prefer it. I know Italy is different, but it's still a modern country and they need to get on board with that. I'd be very happy if Uber struck a regulatory compromise to not undercut fares, but I suspect the taxi companies will still flip their .... and continue to protest because they don't want to invest in convenience/tech enhancement, nor pay Uber to license their platform.
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Old Apr 18, 2017, 2:40 pm
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Originally Posted by PWMTrav
I want to:

  • Hail from an app
  • Pay with a credit card, 100% of the time if I desire
  • Know when I'm getting picked up
  • Know what it will cost, within a couple of euro
The ITTaxi app https://www.ittaxi.it/app allows you to hail from an app and works pretty well; it does give you an estimated arrival time, but of course the meter is already running so the price is not determined. There appears to be a way to pay with Visa/Discover or PayPal (hmm) but I have not done it.

But I would like for them to compete with someone else too.
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Old Apr 18, 2017, 2:55 pm
  #25  
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http://anamericaninrome.com/wp/2017/...-taxi-in-rome/

Came across this article a couple of months ago.
The Ciampino taxi issue - they truly are jerks - has been known for years. I just take the bus.
The article suggests MyTaxi app.
Anyone tried it yet? I've seen mixed reviews on TA, but often TA contributors are novice travelers and what may be difficult for them may be perfectly workable for the more experienced.
I stay in central Rome and there's always a Taxi Stand around the corner, but this would be easier (for poor Italian speakers like me) than the phone for that 4.30am pickup.
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Old Apr 18, 2017, 6:02 pm
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Originally Posted by ckendall
The ITTaxi app https://www.ittaxi.it/app allows you to hail from an app and works pretty well; it does give you an estimated arrival time, but of course the meter is already running so the price is not determined. There appears to be a way to pay with Visa/Discover or PayPal (hmm) but I have not done it.

But I would like for them to compete with someone else too.
It's also kind of a clunky app, and you wonder if anyone is actually going to show up. The thing about Uber is that it has a consistent experience no matter where you are - you know whether or not someone is available, has accepted the fare, and the payment method is cleared up front.

Have you used ITTaxi? I have it installed, but I've admittedly not tried it, mostly because when I need a taxi I don't want to roll the dice on a no-show, so I either uber if available or I call.
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Old Apr 18, 2017, 8:07 pm
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I have used it a number of times and it mostly worked. Once a guy "got lost" on his way and told me to ignore the meter and we agreed on a reasonable price. Most of the time they give you the number of the guy and he shows within five minutes or so (but I have only done it in Milan).
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Old May 5, 2017, 12:08 am
  #28  
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Tomorrow we are supposed to learn the answer to this, but the story in the news doesn't bode well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000009

"Uber Faces Criminal Probe Over Software Used To Evade Authorities
The criminal probe adds to the problems facing the struggling company."

And in Italy:
http://www.corriere.it/tecnologia/ec...8eb1814c.shtml

Uber e il programma per evitare i controlli della polizia: aperta indagine penale negli Usa Dopo le rivelazioni del New York Times sul software Greyball, usato dalla societ per evitare le autorit, il dipartimento di giustizia americano ha deciso di vederci chiaro.

"Uber uses a software program 'Greyball' to avoid regulations: Criminal penalties in the USA after the NY Times investigation, the US Justice Department has decided it clearly sees it that way."

And, http://www.corriere.it/tecnologia/ec...8eb1814c.shtml

Un periodo nero " "A period of acting outside the law"

La sua reputazione peggiora dopo le rilevazioni sul trattamento discriminatorio da parte di alcune dipendenti e sulla controversa posizione del suo Ceo, Travis Kalanick. Poi le accuse da parte di Google, che sta cercando di dimostrare come Uber abbia rubato la sua tecnologia per l’auto a guida autonoma. Ma i problemi legali, a quanto pare, potrebbero essere ancora pi seri.

"Their reputation continues to worsen with revelations of discriminatory practices against employees, and the controversial positions of the CEO. Now they're accused by Google of stealing their technology for driverless cars. Their legal problems might be even more serious than that."

The ruling to ban them from Italy, as has happened in other places, is supposed to be made tomorrow, May 5th. Their inability to stay out of the headlines on both sides of the Atlantic can't be helping them, nor can the recent ruling in Barcelona, "Uber is banned for the foreseeable future because it won't adjust to the regulations."
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Old May 5, 2017, 8:46 am
  #29  
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Italy's decision is that there will be no decision yet.

http://www.adnkronos.com/fatti/crona...BQ3VMImkL.html

Stop a Uber, il Tribunale Civile ascolta le parti
"Stopping Uber, the Tribunale listens to both parties."

Pubblicato il: 05/05/2017 07:04
Si avvicina il verdetto su Uber. Oggi, infatti, il Tribunale Civile di Roma ascolter le parti per decidere se la multinazionale californiana potr continuare a operare in territorio italiano .

"The verdict on Uber is getting closer. Today, in fact, the Tribunal will listen to the two parties and decide if the Californian multi-national can continue to operate in Italian territory."
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Old May 13, 2017, 1:05 pm
  #30  
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While Italy punted, at least for a while, the EU came down hard on Uber this week. Their ruling is not binding on all member countries, but they rejected Uber's argument that it is not a taxi company. Uber's position has been that it is just a website that connects independent car owners who want to offer a ride to someone for a price. It considers itself as a third party that cannot be held accountable for country's rules concerning insurance, stringency of drivers' background checks, knowledge of how to get around the city. The EU disagreed, and said that they are not a website. They are a taxi company. The largest taxi company in the world. As such, the EU magistrate ruled that all member companies should require them to obey all of the rules that govern public transportation. Many cities, including Rome, have already done this, as discussed upthread. However, this EU-wide decision is a potential game-changer, if adopted by member countries. Uber's response was that, "Europe is just behind the times," and they will make some changes to accommodate that.
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