GUWonder

Are you suggesting this was done by anti-Mussolini types?

Are the vandals -- historical pun intended too -- going to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? There is enough surveillance around the area that it shouldn't be too difficult to at least identity some of the perpetrators.

AlicorporateUK

Given that even well known mafia bosses, members and relative families (often also heavily involved in organized crime) stay unpunished (and well protected) in Italy, I suspect that the vandals will easily get away with it. Just to give you a rough idea on how things work in Italy: one of my friend's car caught fire last week (apparently the thug had targeted the car parked just behind, which obviously was also reduced to dust) and Carabinieri were pretty swift to determine the malicious nature of the fire (they are pretty good at that, just to wash their hands off, though). Despite the several CCTV cameras installed in the area (one, notably, facing the main entrance of a pub literally a couple of metres away from where the cars were parked) and clear evidence of what happened/who caused the fire, nothing was done and the young chap, clearly responsible for this distressful crime, is reportedly seen at the local bar for the usual aperitivo as if nothing happened (he got questioned, but that was it)

G

Perche

I just got back to San Francisco from Venice last night. I was in a bar reading Corriere della Sera, perhaps the main newspaper. This Starbucks thing and the palm and banana trees has turned into a huge thing, with front page articles. Starbucks supposedly did this to make the flood of refugees fleeing war in North Africa feel more welcome.

As most people know, in the USA there is a serious political storm right now around immigration. In Italy, the problem is different, it is refugees fleeing war in North Africa. The Italian Navy often rescues thousands of people per day on skimpy boats, packed with people, that often capsize. Given its proximity to Africa, Italy along with Greece, are the two main destinations. In 2016 Italy probably overtook Greece as receiving the most refugees, about 200,000. As in the USA, there is a lot of debate about this.

The palm trees were burnt down within three days by angry citizens, before the banana trees could be planted. Yesterday in the Milan City Hall there were a bunch of protesters carrying bananas.

Some of the things I saw in the paper were quite shocking. I took some photos, but they didn't come out that well, so I went to the newspaper website and found them. The articles were all about racism. The photos raise lots of questions.

You can scroll through the 21 photos below, and I wrote translations of some. http://milano.corriere.it/foto-galle...omArticle=true

One shows a picture of the Duomo next to an Egyptian pyramid. Another shows minarets on the top of the Duomo and says, "welcome to Milanobad?" Another shows the palm trees burning, "hate of the palm trees." Another is translated, "Oasis of the Duomo, the capital of the Islamist State is now the Duomo." Another shows the palm trees and says, "for the moments when you miss the seaside." Some speak for themselves. Others, "the stupor of tourists when they see palm trees in Milan."Another shows the Piazza Duomo with giraffes, a tiger, and monkeys climbing up the palm trees." There's a selfie of a camel in front of the Duomo. There are some twitters, including one showing the results of global warming and saying, "now I get it, they are preparing for when Milan is at the seashore.

if Starbucks thought that this would be a popular way of introducing themselves to the Italian market, I would seriously doubt the abilities of their local contacts.

They did find the persons who burned down the trees. No, this wasn't anti-mussolini. I pointed out that in the past, Mussolini also planted palm trees at the Duomo as symbols of his conquests in North Africa. The motivations here are different, and shown by the photos and twitter in the link.

While this doesn't necessarily have to do with travel, it is easy to think of Italy as La Dolce Vita, Bel Paese, etc., but I think it can be useful to know some the realities about the country as well.

Perche

Starbucks Italian business partners defend them, and now they are having a vote. So far, 68% say no to palm and banana trees in Piazza Duomo. I think this suggests that the headline, "Starbucks to open 200-300 stores in italy," was premature.

http://milano.corriere.it/notizie/cr...ee291490.shtml

Brief explanation of the article by Elisabetta Scoglio of Corriere. In Italy the 1970's are called the Years of Lead. There was a lot of crime, kidnapping, terrorist bombing, etc. Terrorists kidnapped the Prime Minister and killed him. The blew up the train station in Bologna. This is when guys on Vespa's would rip a purse off of women's shoulders without even slowing down.

The article says that Starbucks agreed to pay for refining and remaking the garden around the Duomo, but was not responsible for picking out the type of trees. The goal was to do something useful for the city.

What we cannot accept now is the politicization of a type of plant. Burning down trees is a legacy of the 1970's, the years of lead, with gratuitous and senseless violence. Milan is known as a creative and modern city. These are the qualities that enchanted Howard Schulz when he came to Milan and developed the idea of starting Starbucks. That's why he always dreamed of opening stores here. In the USA, Starbucks is the third most important place. Your home, then your workplace, then where you go to have coffee, be with friends, read the newspaper.

And so on. They Milan government is taking it as a serious crime, but the voting is that people don't want it. Lots of debate going on about whether this is racism, etc.

Reds2011

Their attempt to break into the Australian market fell over due to this. After getting to nearly 100 outlets over about 7 years and losing a lot of money, they closed 2/3 of the stores and just kept a few in tourist heavy areas.

They forgot that a lot of the Italian and Greek immigrants in the 50's brought their coffee culture along with them and we adopted it eagerly - it seemed like every town had a cafe run by an italian or greek family, with a massive espresso machine humming away. Unlike the US, there was a lot of great coffee around by the time they got there.

I don't think Italy has too much to worry about, other than maybe sparing a few baristas from the horror of having people order cappuccino in the afternoon!!

bigguyinpasadena

Apparently the "Bar Association" in Italy has nothing to do with Lawyers
http://www.cntraveler.com/story/rome...rice-of-coffee

KLouis

The Starbucks to open as mentioned in the article are just a good excuse, they simply decided to raise the price like they do every few years! A Roman bar investing in WiFi is simply a joke. Other than the already expensive bars catering to tourists (e.g. at P.za del Poppolo) nobody sits down in a bar in Rome (and most of the rest of Italy) for a cup of coffee!

rickg523

The bottom line...Starbucks provided a mass outlet for "better than average" brewed coffee in the US. In case you weren't there, coffee was overall lousy in American coffee shops. This is a nation that until the 1980's PERCOLATED coffee. Try that sometime.
Starbucks has little to offer European nations, each of which have their own "coffee culture."
Their shops in Europe - like Australia - will be frequented by those tourists who travel but prefer familiarity to discovery.

KLouis

+1

bebert

+100

Will be like Mc DO in Spain where they did not make any effort of "localization". => Miserable failure, one the lowest density in Europe
I was always proud of the Spaniards, with their great food culture, that they discarded this trashhole
Nobody in their right mind will ever take an expresso from Starbucks instead of a local bar in Italy
Given that Starbucks is as well in the same league as Mc Do for tax avoidance, much better to consume and generate taxes locally
Hard to escape Google nowadays, but a good local expresso is always around the corner in Europe. Hopefully for long.....

bigguyinpasadena

"nobody sits down in a bar in Rome (and most of the rest of Italy) for a cup of coffee!"
Sigh.... as a non-drinker I often sit in a sidewalk cafe nursing a coffee( Instead of a glass of wine) and watch the passing parade pf people.It is something I enjoy doing when traveling. So that is not a thing in Italy?

GUWonder

Tax evasion is almost a national sport for Italian retail business owners, local restaurant and bar owners included.

Starbucks and McD hire lawyers to try to stay on the right side of tax laws in the countries in which they do business and don't have a preference for cash settlement and using unlawful invoicing and "secret" book keeping. In Italy, it's locals being on the wrong side of the tax laws that is the main driver behind the underpayment of due taxes.

There are plenty of reasons to prefer the local retailers over the international ones in Italy when it comes to food and beverage outlets, but taxes are a dubious reason to do so.

ckendall

My impression is that there are two kinds of coffee service: at the bar, where you pay and drink, perhaps chat with the barman and leave and at a table, where you have as long as you want to sit and read/chat with your friends etc.

Back in the day there was different pricing for sitting and standing and that might still be the case in some places.

Perche

Since a coffee is only a few ounces and will be cold in a minute, people drink it in a few gulps, standing up. However, you are absolutely welcome to sit at a table with a cup of coffee and to sit as little my as you like, with no pressure, even if you stay there for an hour. The only difference is, don't go to the bar and get a cup of coffee and bring it to sit at a table. You must sit at a table and let the waiter or waitress provide table service. It's a no-no to walk your coffee to a table and sit down. Stay at the table as long as you like. That's why the coffee costs twice as much at the table as at the bar. No worries.

bebert

Given that, to get served , in most if not all bars where i took coffee in Italy, you have to pay first and then show the ticket to the barrista, i always thought that coffee bar was one of the activities with the lowest tax avoidance

I always found ticket emissions was higher then France and Spain for instance