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14 days in northern Italy (Milano- Bologna)

14 days in northern Italy (Milano- Bologna)

Old Jun 19, 2015, 7:28 am
  #1  
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14 days in northern Italy (Milano- Bologna)

Hi,

We are planning on a 14 day trip to Italy this summer. We are flying in to Milano and back from Bologna. We are going to rent a car. We are just going to book accommodation one day ahead to be flexible, but I would like suggestions/recommendations on our initial plan:

Milano (just for a day, since I've been there before)
Cinque Terra
Lucca (And a small trip to Pisa, been there before too)
Firenze
San Gimignano
Siena
Urbino
San Marino
Bologna
(And maybe a trip to Modena or Ferrara)
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Old Jun 19, 2015, 2:25 pm
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Crazy...

Do you want to stay and see or only: Italy we've done it?!
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Old Jun 19, 2015, 4:27 pm
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Originally Posted by Forstbetrieb
Crazy...

Do you want to stay and see or only: Italy we've done it?!
I want to see and I think it should be plenty of time for that. One of the places I suspect to use most time would be in Florence and 2 days should be plenty. I have traveled a lot (been to Italy 4 times before also) and I know which pace I prefer to travel to see as much as possible while having a good time.
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Old Jun 20, 2015, 1:49 am
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1500 km and two days in Florence.

Skip Pisa if you have been there before.

Rental car in Cinque Terre?!... Do you want to make the big route by feet there?

Landing in Milan. Where? Malpensa, Linate, Bergamo... And when morning, noon, evening...
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Old Jun 20, 2015, 4:29 am
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To give an example of the pace. Plan for first two days:
Day 1: Arriving very early at Malpensa, drive to milano centrum, stay for a few hours and eat lunch. Drive to a hotel somewhere near Cinque Terre (e.g. La Spezia or Levanto), eat dinner and enjoy night.
Day 2: Drive to train station and take train into Cinque Terre early in the morning. Walk between the towns during the day. Take late train back. Drive to the same hotel.
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Old Jun 20, 2015, 4:58 am
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If you rent a car at MXP and drive into Milano Centro you can get in trouble with the ZTL. You have to park outside this zone.

BTW: one hour to get a car in the morning is quite normal at MXP.

Plus another hour to go to Milano because of traffic.

Last edited by Forstbetrieb; Jun 20, 2015 at 5:04 am
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Old Jun 20, 2015, 11:27 am
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10-11 cities in 14 days, including I assume arrival and departure day, is not really a way to experience Italy. Recently I had a layover in Zurich. The plane had a mechanical problem and wouldn't take off. They put us in a hotel near the airport in the early afternoon.

I took a train into the city, walked along the water, ate some typical touristy food. There was a church and I heard some nice choir music practicing, so I went in and sat for a while. Then I walked to the Tonhalle, and was surprised to find that there was a chamber music concert of Beethoven's late string quartets that night. I saw it, then went back to the hotel, and we left the next morning. When someone asks if I've ever visited Zurich, I say no. I had a layover there, but I never really visited it. I wouldn't consider half a day somewhere as having visited a place.

You cannot experience Cinque Terre in one day in the summer. The place is a madhouse. Everyone who I have ever spoken to who has tried to do this has regretted it.

The Cinque Terre are a place to relax and see sunrises and sunsets before the day trippers arrive, and after they have left. It's a place for superb dining, eating their very unique pesto dishes. It's a type of pesto not found anywhere else in the world because that particular type of basil doesn't grow anywhere else.

It's a great thing to hike the five cities and to end up at the beach in Monterossa and take a dip in the ocean. You'll need it. On the way, stop at the town of Corniglia because they have a type of honey gelato also not found anywhere else in Italy, or even in the other towns of Cinque Terre. Another thing unique to the region is focaccia, which is something like Roman pizza bianca, but is nothing like what they call focaccia in the USA.

People in Italy generally don't eat breakfast, they just have a pastry and a coffee standing up at a bar on the way to work, but in Cinque Terre they eat pancakes for breakfast. But the pancakes are different from any you've ever had. They are made from chick peas. The Cinque Terre are so unique that even the anchovies in Monterosso are different from anywhere else in the world and have protected status, meaning that in the EU, "Anchovies from Monterosso," like traditional balsamic vinegar of Modena, or parmigiana cheese from Parma, is unique. You are not allowed to make cheese in Verona and call it parmigiana, because it won't be the same, it won't be as good. Similarly, the quality of the anchovies in Monterosso is so unique that no one else is allowed to call them that. There are many other unique things about the Cinque Terre.

What I'm getting at is, if you are going to the Cinque Terre and you just plan to be there for one day, that's like having an airplane layover in London on the way from Venice to Los Angeles, and then saying "I've done London." You will not have been to the Cinque Terre, you will have just passed through without discovering anything about it, and without getting to enjoy what it has to offer, you will just be part of an enormous, sweaty crowd during the afternoon

When I read your list of 10-11 cities in 14 days it made me think of Jack Kerouac's book, "On the Road," about his car trip across the USA. But even Kerouac left himself more time to experience the different cities he stopped in along the way than you will have had. And I'm just talking Cinque Terre here, not the things you'll be missing in the other ten cities you plan to do layovers at during the remaining 13 days.

In Italy, whether it's food or travel, it's all about quality, not quantity.

Last edited by Perche; Jun 20, 2015 at 11:36 am
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Old Jun 21, 2015, 12:57 pm
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You've listed 10-12 places in 14 days and said you're comfortable with that pace. I think we'd need to know more about what your goals are for this trip in order to give better advice, as most of us going to Italy with any regularity are doing it at a slower pace. I'll give you the obligatory "that's too much for 2 weeks" but if you're really set on that, let us know what you're trying to get out of it.

At that pace, I'd recommend skipping Cinque Terre since, quite honestly, that level of speed is incompatible with the area - especially in the summer where you physically won't be able to blitz it as quickly as you plan to do. Your plan would probably work in the early spring or fall, but in summer you will physically not be able to do it that quickly with the human obstacles in your way I'd also suggest eliminating Milan, since you're driving and there's a ZTL to contend with your day trip - if you want to do it, take the bus or train from the airport, then get your car on the way back out.

Your next step is probably to plan which towns and cities you want to spend your nights. Will you do 2 in Florence and a night in each of the others, or will any be pure day trips? Go ahead and book your accommodations now, summer is peak season. Take parking into consideration since you'll have a car (for instance, Florence has a ZTL, so see what your hotel can arrange).

Then, figure out what you want to see and what you want to eat. I assume the variety of places is to obtain a variety of some experience, but what experiences are your priorities?

If you're planning two days and two nights in Florence, I could probably help you a bit there. However, I'd probably direct you to ditch the car, take the train to Florence, extend it to 5-7 days and do a mix of city activities and day trips to the Tuscan towns you've listed - either by train or by hiring a driver. It would amount to the same, except you'd sleep in the same bed every night. That way you can get the city experience, enjoy the countryside, and not worry about getting lots of traffic tickets or looking for parking. If you're interested in that, let me know and I can make some recommendations.
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Old Jun 22, 2015, 12:48 pm
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Thank you for all your input. That list is in no way written in stone. So we'll see after a few days if we are comfortable with the pace. If not we are willing to cut the list in half, so nothing is decided. We have booked hotels for the first three days, but after that we planned on just booking a couple at a time. Would that be problematic, since its summer? Our dates are 25. June to 09. July, I was under the impression that that was before peak season, but it looked like a lot was booked already when we looked for the first three days.

And for Cirque Terra, I see your point about too little time, but if we end up only seeing 2-3 cities that's fine.
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Old Jun 22, 2015, 12:58 pm
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As for the ZTL. It looks to me like that zone is quite small (30 minutes walking across), which is no problem at all. I guess parking might be packed right outside, so you might have to park further out, but I don't think that should be a problem. I love to walk around in foreign countries for hours (When I was in Tokyo I walked around 30 km a day).
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Old Jun 22, 2015, 2:41 pm
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Originally Posted by SindreS
Thank you for all your input. That list is in no way written in stone. So we'll see after a few days if we are comfortable with the pace. If not we are willing to cut the list in half, so nothing is decided. We have booked hotels for the first three days, but after that we planned on just booking a couple at a time. Would that be problematic, since its summer? Our dates are 25. June to 09. July, I was under the impression that that was before peak season, but it looked like a lot was booked already when we looked for the first three days.

And for Cirque Terra, I see your point about too little time, but if we end up only seeing 2-3 cities that's fine.
For that time of year, you need to firm up your logistics ASAP - hotel and car (if any) definitely. Trains can likely wait a bit, but keep an eye on that.

Regarding Cinque Terre and seeing 2-3 of the towns, I'm still not convinced that's feasible in the day you currently have allocated there. You're not going to be the only one starting at La Spezia that day and trying to do the exact same thing. If you really want to do CT, bag the day in Milan and go right to your base near Cinque Terre - maybe even stay in one of the towns for 2 nights and hike to the others while you're there.

Originally Posted by SindreS
As for the ZTL. It looks to me like that zone is quite small (30 minutes walking across), which is no problem at all. I guess parking might be packed right outside, so you might have to park further out, but I don't think that should be a problem. I love to walk around in foreign countries for hours (When I was in Tokyo I walked around 30 km a day).
If you're talking about Florence, yes, the centro storico is not huge. You can walk end to end in relatively little time. You'll need to find a lot for the car, though, and you're correct that you won't be the only one doing that.

For me, it'd be a lot easier to take a train from La Spezia to Firenze (there's a less frequent regionale with no changes, or a 1 change in Pisa that runs more frequently). You could do 3-5 nights in Cinque Terre then leave La Spezia in the morning, spend the afternoon in Pisa, and arrive in Firenze at night to check into your hotel/apartment and have dinner. Base there for 3-5 nights (or longer if BLQ is your point of return) and see Firenze, Lucca, San Gimignano, Siena, etc, either by train or with a driver. You don't have to do it that way, but that's how I would, and that's how I've planned others' itineraries in the past. In the latter cases, it's been better with a driver because there's a lot of wine to be had Firenze to Bologna Centrale is then about an hour on the train, if I recall correctly. You can base your last few days from there to see Bologna, Modena, etc.

The above puts you in two "home bases" for 6-10 nights in proximity to the towns you want to see. Just my recommendation, you don't have to do it this way. But for itineraries where folks want to see lots of places in a 2 week span, I think it makes sense to base out of 1-2 cities and day trip out as much as you want from those places - while it does add some transportation time (since there's an out and a return each day trip), it does cut down on dealing with check-in and check-out times at hotels (which this time of year, just assume your room won't be ready at 3pm) and packing up your things to move each day. It also mitigates the risk of day trip burnout because you can decide to just stay put one day and you have a place to stay in the middle of a city to see.

All that said, if you're 99% certain you DO want to see a ton of places in short duration, get a car and start booking your 1 night stays. It's just a lot harder to change course on that once you're booked.
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Old Jun 22, 2015, 3:28 pm
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Originally Posted by SindreS
As for the ZTL. It looks to me like that zone is quite small (30 minutes walking across), which is no problem at all. I guess parking might be packed right outside, so you might have to park further out, but I don't think that should be a problem. I love to walk around in foreign countries for hours (When I was in Tokyo I walked around 30 km a day).
You are right, just because the ZTL is small doesn't mean you will be able to find parking outside of it. Walking from the far outskirts of Milan to the center is not like walking in other foreign cities, or Italian cities for that matter. There's nothing to see. Its industrial, run down, hot, muggy, and not so safe in many areas. In Tokyo you can go for a 30 km walk and throw your wallet in the street, and if the address of the hotel where your're staying at is in it, someone will most likely bring it to you without a missing yen.

I wouldn't bet on finding decent hotels in Italy without an advance reservation. In many parts of northern Italy there is barely such a thing as low season. You might wind up having to stay at a motel on the side of a highway or somewhere on the outskirts of the city, and pay top rate. When you're tired, it's exhausting to drive along the highway, stopping at hotel after hotel, asking if there are vacancies and hearing no, or yes, but for 400 euros, then getting back in the car and doing this over and over again, frustrated that you have no place to sleep. Or just parking and googling or trip-advisor-searching hotels and calling them one after another, hoping for a vacancy and a decent rate. It's not like Holiday Inn, where "you're always welcome!" Northern Italy will be packed at this time.

You can travel and wing it in Italy, but it's costly and not easy if you don't know the country, the language, and how it works. At the time of the year you're going, even if you start searching for hotels today you're going to have a hard time finding a vacancy in a good location at a good hotel, at a good price. I can easily imagine scenarios where you can't get a hotel in the city at all unless it's a dump, or you go out on the highway and stay at a motel, and pay more for a bad place than people who plan ahead pay for a great place.

I sometimes have to go to Italy on short notice and immediately get on the phone trying to secure a reservation from the USA before I take off because I can't imagine going without having my lodging settled. I used to do that when I was much younger and it too often resulted in what I described above, bad hotels, hotels out of the exciting parts of town and sometimes, no hotel at all, with five people sleeping at a hot and noisy rest stop on the side of the road, deciding whether or not to open the windows and get bitten to death by Italy's famous summer mosquito infestation, or have some fresh air, or pay millions of lira for a room that we planned on just crashing in because we were leaving the next day,

To each his own, I wouldn't criticize your choices. you're going to have a great time. It's hard to have a bad time in Italy.

But it's really worth more than a drive-through. As English essayist Samuel Johnson who wrote the first English dictionary said in the 1700's (somewhat sexistly), "A man who has not been in Italy, is always conscious of an inferiority, from his not having seen what it is expected a man should see."

In my opinion, you can't "see" Italy if you spend most of your time packing and unpacking, driving, looking for parking, while trying to avoid ZTL tickets that will hound you to hell, without even knowing where you are going or staying.
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Old Jun 22, 2015, 3:51 pm
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Originally Posted by PWMTrav
For that time of year, you need to firm up your logistics ASAP - hotel and car (if any) definitely. Trains can likely wait a bit, but keep an eye on that.

Regarding Cinque Terre and seeing 2-3 of the towns, I'm still not convinced that's feasible in the day you currently have allocated there. You're not going to be the only one starting at La Spezia that day and trying to do the exact same thing. If you really want to do CT, bag the day in Milan and go right to your base near Cinque Terre - maybe even stay in one of the towns for 2 nights and hike to the others while you're there.



If you're talking about Florence, yes, the centro storico is not huge. You can walk end to end in relatively little time. You'll need to find a lot for the car, though, and you're correct that you won't be the only one doing that.

For me, it'd be a lot easier to take a train from La Spezia to Firenze (there's a less frequent regionale with no changes, or a 1 change in Pisa that runs more frequently). You could do 3-5 nights in Cinque Terre then leave La Spezia in the morning, spend the afternoon in Pisa, and arrive in Firenze at night to check into your hotel/apartment and have dinner. Base there for 3-5 nights (or longer if BLQ is your point of return) and see Firenze, Lucca, San Gimignano, Siena, etc, either by train or with a driver. You don't have to do it that way, but that's how I would, and that's how I've planned others' itineraries in the past. In the latter cases, it's been better with a driver because there's a lot of wine to be had Firenze to Bologna Centrale is then about an hour on the train, if I recall correctly. You can base your last few days from there to see Bologna, Modena, etc.

The above puts you in two "home bases" for 6-10 nights in proximity to the towns you want to see. Just my recommendation, you don't have to do it this way. But for itineraries where folks want to see lots of places in a 2 week span, I think it makes sense to base out of 1-2 cities and day trip out as much as you want from those places - while it does add some transportation time (since there's an out and a return each day trip), it does cut down on dealing with check-in and check-out times at hotels (which this time of year, just assume your room won't be ready at 3pm) and packing up your things to move each day. It also mitigates the risk of day trip burnout because you can decide to just stay put one day and you have a place to stay in the middle of a city to see.

All that said, if you're 99% certain you DO want to see a ton of places in short duration, get a car and start booking your 1 night stays. It's just a lot harder to change course on that once you're booked.
This is really good. I've used Florence as a base for weeks and day-tripped to see a fair in San Gemingnano, to see Sienna, Lucca, Fiesole, etc. I had a base.

I especially agree with your comments about Cinque Terre.
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Old Jul 12, 2015, 7:54 am
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We have a similiar trip planned but tied in with using Hilton points to save a bit. Just secured 2 AA award tickets to FLR early June, Hilton gives you the 5th night free so thinking 5 nights here. Like many of you suggest we are not keen to packing and unpacking so would use day trips to see the countryside. We want to fly home from Geneva so last 2/3 nights at the Hilton on the French side. This leaves around a week to fill in around the Lake Como area, should we stay a couple of nights in Milan I see they have a few Hiltons? We are also not keen to renting a car so will travel by train/bus/ferry; would like to visit places like Vareena, Argegno or possibly Monaggio.

just trying to get a feel for what is practical.
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Old Jul 15, 2015, 8:46 pm
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Originally Posted by kmandrew
We have a similiar trip planned but tied in with using Hilton points to save a bit. Just secured 2 AA award tickets to FLR early June, Hilton gives you the 5th night free so thinking 5 nights here. Like many of you suggest we are not keen to packing and unpacking so would use day trips to see the countryside. We want to fly home from Geneva so last 2/3 nights at the Hilton on the French side. This leaves around a week to fill in around the Lake Como area, should we stay a couple of nights in Milan I see they have a few Hiltons? We are also not keen to renting a car so will travel by train/bus/ferry; would like to visit places like Vareena, Argegno or possibly Monaggio.

just trying to get a feel for what is practical.
How important is it to use your Hilton points? In Florence there are two Hiltons. They are nice, but the locations are miserable. Location means a lot when visiting Italy. You have to take two or three buses to get to the city center, where everything is, or walk and it's over an hour. And it will be hot. Once you get to the city center you'll be tired, will see some things, then will want to go to your hotel to cool off. The Hiltons are so far out of town that once you go back there, you'll be spending the rest of the day in your hotel room, because you won't want to walk downtown again. You could do it by cab, but that adds up.

For Milan, first, it's not really a good city to visit unless your intention is to visit the Expo, rather than see Italy. Of all the cities to visit in Italy, it is one of the worst. It would be a real waste precious vacation time to spend a couple of nights there. I only know of two Hilton hotels, one a big, fancy business style hotel in central downtown. It really is for business travelers. Not a place that feels like vacation, and there's nothing to do in that neighborhood. The other is the Doubletree, a very nice hotel, but which is in a not very nice neighborhood, far, far from the nice areas that you might want to see, like around La Scala, Brera, Navigli.

It would be better to spend it all in Como. Varenna, Menaggio, and Argegno are not plays to day trip to from Milan. They are places where you really have to stay, and soak up the spirit of hanging out around the lake, not taking trains back and forth to from Milan. A week in Lake Como is like week in heaven.

Last edited by Perche; Jul 16, 2015 at 12:36 pm
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