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Got another traffic ticket from Italy! After 2 years! Help!

Got another traffic ticket from Italy! After 2 years! Help!

Old Jun 1, 2015, 7:53 pm
  #31  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Got another traffic ticket from Italy! After 2 years! Help!

Hello,

I hope someone can help me here. We got a traffic ticket in July 2014 from a trip to Italy a year prior to that. As soon as we got the ticket, we paid the ticket plus the late fees. And now, after one year later, we just received another letter saying that we owe 221 Euros because we did not provide drivers personal data and license information (as I understand from the letter). I just re-read the first letter we received in 2014, and it says the following "You are advised to complete the attached reply form (point D) and send it to the following address, if you do not pay this financial penalty: Municipal Police Department...."
Am I incorrect in understanding that I was supposed to send the form if I din't want to pay the penalty?
Since we paid the balance we did not sent the form.

I find this really ridiculous way of getting more money from tourists. Has anyone had same issue with Italian police? I don't want to pay this fee. Should I fill the letter and send it to the email address provided? Would that change anything?

Any advise is appreciated.

Thanks.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 5:11 am
  #32  
 
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This has nothing to do with tourists. Laws are the same for locals and tourists alike.

You likely have been caught on an infringement which involved the deduction of points from license (speeding, red light etc. - Parking tickets don't generate demerit points).

Upon receiving the violation letter, you're required to communicate the actual driver identity responsible of the infringement.
This is the person whose license will be affected by the points reduction. This applies where no immediate objection can be done by officials due safety reasons or highways "tutor" cameras are involved.
The lack of response implies a fine from Euro 263,00 to 1.050,00 (it is normally on the lowest end).
Therefore, you have to consider this issue not a double enforcement for the same violation, but a sanction for a whole separate violation.

Now it all depends on your nationality, license (obviously no demerits for non-Italian license) if you plan or not to get back to Italy and whether the car was rented or not.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 10:02 am
  #33  
 
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To Forrest Bump: Thanks for your response. We are American citizens and we rented the car from Hertz. We would like to go back to Italy at some point in the future.

My confusion is that the initial letter did not say that we had to provide those details. It was as simple as faxing them the form, had it been clear in the letter that we had to send that information.

They gave an email address, can we explain the situation and at least get a reduced fine? The fine is actually around 310 euros.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 11:07 am
  #34  
 
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Not a lawyer here but definitely would drop them back an email explaining the issue.
Being a foreign national you can easily prove that the lack of reply about the actual driver occurred in good faith, since no additional payment was due anyway by your side, once the original fine got paid.

Better to write them in Italian. If nobody can help you PM me and will be glad to help with the translation.

Did you get your second request via Hertz, or directly from the Police Dept.?
This makes a big difference in terms of collection capability by the road body.

As a side note, not sure if unpaid fines get channeled to immigration department, but my guess is that it is unlikely.
For 310 euros I'd definitely fight back, and simply carry the receipt on the next visit (not necessary anyway after 5 years from the infringement).
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 11:17 am
  #35  
 
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Most countries in Europe want the driver's details so that they may be "opened" in their licensing system and attributed a local number so that their offences may be tracked and points deducted from the virtual license. No more points, no more recognition of your foreign license. This is also often wiped after only a year or two as they have no interest to clog up their system with every foreign national with a moving violation.

It is a bit of a dodgy affair when concerning a rental, where there is only one driver permitted. They already have the driver's details since the rental car company provided all of the data. But fighting it would cost 100x paying it. Oh well.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 11:32 am
  #36  
 
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That's quite a bit. It's one reason why people generally recommend train travel as less stressful, with cars mainly needed when touring rural areas in Piedmont or Tuscany, etc. Even then, if winery tastings are on the menu it is better to hire a driver.

They have a year to ticket you. I've known people who have come back from Italy and almost a year later got hit with 5-6 tickets for several hundred euros each. There doesn't have to be a policeman there. They can catch speeding and other infractions on camera and by law can nail you up to one year later.

It doesn't matter whether or not you ever plan to return to Italy. Italy has partnered with a very aggressive USA collection agency and they will go after you. And it doesn't matter if you rented from Hertz on a credit card you no longer have. They can make Hertz charge you on that canceled card, then Hertz will come after you.

As Forest Bump said, this has nothing to do with ripping off tourists. Traffic rules are different there. Just see what would happen to you (and your car) if you ever got a DUI over there, and they don't use 0.08.

I feel sympathy because this was a misunderstanding on your part. All I can say is that in a foreign country don't take translations for granted. The letter probably had mistakes. You see it all the time. Not to make light of it, but see here: http://www.thelocal.it/galleries/cul...tions-in-italy.

When in Italy, waiters, hotel staff, and others start speaking English and we often assume they are bilingual. Not the case at all. They usually know ten sentences, like how to tell you where the bathroom is, etc. there are a lot of nuances, even when reading official forms. Same with newspaper articles. They're sometimes not understandable in a literal sense. This was probably a misunderstanding, but I don't think you should just ignore it and file a letter of appeal or explanation as it may cost you even more in the future.

When you are late on a fine it usually automatically doubles. The proper way is usually to pay, then appeal. Even then in Italy, for certain fines you have a right to appeal but if you lose, they'll increase your fine quite a bit for wasting their time with the appeal.

Would you mind sharing more about the type of fine, infraction, where it happened, and other details as it may help others provide you with some options.

When in doubt, take a train.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 12:03 pm
  #37  
 
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The major issue (fortunately I'd add) is the foolproof "Tutor" and "Vergilius" camera system, operated since 2008.
The one and only ultimate tool to finally force Italians to slow down on highways and drastically helping to slash the amount of fatal road accidents, now well below the European average.

It calculates the average speed between two points, not just the instantaneous speed, and there's no way to go around it.
Fines are steep and are calculated on the excess of 0-10 km/h, 10-40 km/h, 40-60 km/h, +60 km/h, including demerit points and withdrawal of licence.
An instrumental tolerance of 5% is deducted.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 12:09 pm
  #38  
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The first letter said, "you are advised to complete...." OP did not. His fine has been increased because he did not complete the form.

As someone who wishes to return to Italy and presumably rent from Hertz in Italy and elsewhere, I would be prepared to pay, but first follow Forrest Bump's advice of a short apology and ask for forgiveness.

However, don't drop it. If you don't hear back, presume that you do owe the money until advised to the contrary.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 12:26 pm
  #39  
 
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I'm not saying that we did not deserve the first ticket. And, we did pay it as soon as we received it. It was somewhere rural 1-2 hours from Rome from speeding. I believe we were going 110 kmh on a 90 kmh road. No problem there, as we knew we did speed and paid the fine which was about 200 euros.

The confusion comes in with the first letter as it was not clear that they required us to send the information along with the payment. The letter is in English, so I expected it to mean what it says. Which says send the reply form if you do not pay the fine.

This mistake on behalf of them should not cause me to pay additional 300 euros. I was just asking if anyone had to deal with similar situation and what sound advise they can give.

As it stands, I'm planning to write them an email (which they provided on the letter) and explain the mistake and see if they are reasonable.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 2:04 pm
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by flieder
I'm not saying that we did not deserve the first ticket. And, we did pay it as soon as we received it. It was somewhere rural 1-2 hours from Rome from speeding. I believe we were going 110 kmh on a 90 kmh road. No problem there, as we knew we did speed and paid the fine which was about 200 euros.

The confusion comes in with the first letter as it was not clear that they required us to send the information along with the payment. The letter is in English, so I expected it to mean what it says. Which says send the reply form if you do not pay the fine.

This mistake on behalf of them should not cause me to pay additional 300 euros. I was just asking if anyone had to deal with similar situation and what sound advise they can give.

As it stands, I'm planning to write them an email (which they provided on the letter) and explain the mistake and see if they are reasonable.

There are other countries similar to Italy, with the same climate. Try vacationing in Croatia, and leave Italy to others.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 2:35 pm
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by Reindeerflame
There are other countries similar to Italy, with the same climate. Try vacationing in Croatia, and leave Italy to others.
And, since we like go to countryside where we cannot take public transportation (plus driving is more convenient), seems like we will be dealing with similar issues elsewhere. Lesson learned: No speeding!
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 4:05 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by Reindeerflame
There are other countries similar to Italy, with the same climate. Try vacationing in Croatia, and leave Italy to others.
Originally Posted by flieder
And, since we like go to countryside where we cannot take public transportation (plus driving is more convenient), seems like we will be dealing with similar issues elsewhere. Lesson learned: No speeding!
Please, let's not go there. Croatia is not similar to Italy. Italy has 20 distinct, different regions, where people don't eat the same food, and and in many cases, barely speak the same language. According to the UN (UNESCO), Italy has more world heritage sites than any country in the world.

Italy is a center of world automobile engineering, fashion, design, literature, music, science, sculpture, literature, painting, cooking, exploration, navigation Columbus, to Verazzano, to America(o) Vespucci), started the world's first university, has been at the center of western culture for thousands of years, and USA government with a senate, house of representatives and a chief executive, is modeled after it, most of the western judicial system is modeled after it with laws replacing arbitrary judgements made by kings and clergy, now decided by peers.

Croatia just broke away from communism and came into existence in 1991. It has Dobrovnik, Zagreb, nice beaches, and one of its cultural claim to fame is to have invented the mens' neck tie. I go there for a change because it's near Venice and cheaper, but You shouldn't compare it with visiting the cradle of western civilization and art, and recommend it to someone over Italy just because they got a speeding ticket. The lesson is not to speed in Italy, not to visit Croatia instead of Italy.

Last edited by Perche; Jun 3, 2015 at 3:26 pm
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 4:50 pm
  #43  
 
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Hard to know more without specifics, but your best option is probably to pay and then consider making an appeal within the allowed amount of time. It usually doesn't work but not paying and just appealing is not a good option. Italian traffic fines are doubled when you pay late, and they'll often go after you aggressively using a collection agency.

This is one of the downsides of renting a car in Italy as opposed to taking the train, unless you are just going to roam around the countryside. I've heard of people coming back with 4-5 tickets accumulated during one day from doing things like crossing a buses only lane, driving in ZTL, etc., and not receiving the ticket until almost a year later. It's easy to drive in Italy, but with some prior research on do's and don'ts is in order.

Unlike the USA where you can drink, drive, speed, and usually without much consequence, Italy is stringent about its driving laws. Velovex cameras are all over, and there are usually large signs written in Italian telling you that you are approaching one. This is because they are not trying to rip off tourists. They want you to slow down and be safe. Italy may be more strict than the USA but it is considerably more lenient than many other european countries. I've heard that in Norway fines for speeding are 10% of your yearly income, and are as high as $2700 in Iceland. Europe is different.

There are cameras called Autovelox all over Italy that record your speed and send you a ticket. You don't need a policeman with a radar gun. I can tell you that your thought of not paying and just sending an appeal letter pleading ignorance or misunderstanding is as unlikely to work as it is in the USA.

If you tell a police officer here that you didn't know that this was actually a school zone, they will say that, ignorance is no defense. I sympathize with you that the letter may have been mistranslated or not clear, but that won't work because they won't perceive it as their fault if you didn't understand them in their country.

If you don't pay, or if you just appeal that you made a mistake and they throw out the appeal, they will just double the fine. If you rented a car they will charge it to your card and add another 50 euro administration fee for having to transfer the funds through the card. Then the credit card company comes after you. Some people do get away with not paying Italian tickets when they return to the USA, but I can't say that's a regular experience. I'm really sorry this happened to you. Hopefully others take this into account.
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Old Jun 2, 2015, 5:27 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by Perche
Hard to know more without specifics, but your best option is probably to pay and then consider making an appeal within the allowed amount of time. It usually doesn't work but not paying and just appealing is not a good option. Italian traffic fines are doubled when you pay late, and they'll often go after you aggressively using a collection agency.

This is one of the downsides of renting a car in Italy as opposed to taking the train, unless you are just going to roam around the countryside. I've heard of people coming back with 4-5 tickets accumulated during one day from doing things like crossing a buses only lane, driving in ZTL, etc., and not receiving the ticket until almost a year later. It's easy to drive in Italy, but with some prior research on do's and don'ts is in order.

Unlike the USA where you can drink, drive, speed, and usually without much consequence, Italy is stringent about its driving laws. Velovex cameras are all over, and there are usually large signs written in Italian telling you that you are approaching one. This is because they are not trying to rip off tourists. They want you to slow down and be safe. Italy may be more strict than the USA but it is considerably more lenient than many other european countries. I've heard that in Norway fines for speeding are 10% of your yearly income, and are as high as $2700 in Iceland. Europe is different.

There are cameras called Autovelox all over Italy that record your speed and send you a ticket. You don't need a policeman with a radar gun. I can tell you that your thought of not paying and just sending an appeal letter pleading ignorance or misunderstanding is as unlikely to work as it is in the USA.

If you tell a police officer here that you didn't know that this was actually a school zone, they will say that, ignorance is no defense. I sympathize with you that the letter may have been mistranslated or not clear, but that won't work because they won't perceive it as their fault if you didn't understand them in their country.

If you don't pay, or if you just appeal that you made a mistake and they throw out the appeal, they will just double the fine. If you rented a car they will charge it to your card and add another 50 euro administration fee for having to transfer the funds through the card. Then the credit card company comes after you. Some people do get away with not paying Italian tickets when they return to the USA, but I can't say that's a regular experience. I'm really sorry this happened to you. Hopefully others take this into account.
I hope you read my story before accusing me ignorant or not understanding instructions. I did speed (which was not much high) and paid the fine. My question was related to a second fine I received which was related to an already settled issue. If they decide to send me a letter in English, I expect it to mean what it says. How I am supposed to know what they meant was different than what they wrote? They instruct me to send the additional form containing personal information if I didn't pay the penalty. Since I paid, I didn't send it. This is not my fault but theirs.
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Old Jun 3, 2015, 1:35 am
  #45  
 
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I see that flieder here has good points to play with authorities.
He/she did pay already the fine.
What followed was an additional violation notice for not communicating the actual driver.
A violation strictly linked to the possession of an Italian driving license (points).

I would just write them succinctly explaining the issue, enclosing the paid fine invoice, and wait for a reply.
Not an appeal, but just a follow up at the email provided.

- - - -

Due the huge amount of appeals filed against any kind of infringement, trusting in time barring, few years ago the ministry has changed the rules, effectively making this practice less alluring, with the aim of reducing any misuse.

Now it has added costs and, I can tell by experience, the two authorities in charge of assessment appeals (Govt. officer called Prefetto and small claim court) are unlikely to rule against the effectiveness of speeding equipments and the procedures of correctly use them.

And it's true, an unpaid fine, disputed over and over back and forth, in a 5 years time can easily top x10 its original value.
It happens when it lands to the collection Agency, the supremely hated Equitalia.

Now as a tourist it all depends on how tick is your skin and your willingness to invest time in it.
Having been in Australia and New Zealand 11 times as a tourist and knowing the inclination for road ambush in these two countries I learned the hard way to stick religiously to the limits and making sure to pay my fines within hours.
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