Perche

I am not "peddled misinformation" about anything. I started off by saying: "This is just an opinion, but I wouldn't take a chance."

Your opinion that government websites also peddle misinformation is irrelevant. When attempting to enter the USA without a passport the only opinion that matters is that of the immigration official doing the interview, and it's likely to be pretty well aligned with the information on the Department of Homeland Security website.

A non-US citizen does not have the protections of "what must be allowed under the law." There is no international treaty that grants a non-citizen any rights to enter the US or to challenge the decision not to admit them. An EU citizen can challenge the decision of an EU country not to allow them entry because they have a treaty that guarantees them the right to travel and work. Not so with the US.

Again, the the OP's question is whether or not as a non-US citizen he can take a trip to Italy and get back into the USA, all without a passport. I stand by my opinion that he cannot.

I also stand by my previous statement that although the US cannot bar a citizen from re-entering the country in perpetuity, they will be denied entry into the US if they do not have a passport. The denial will remain in force until their admissibility and identity are positively confirmed by immigration officials.

This period of "limbo" will last until they provide enough documents and other information to convince officials that they are a citizen, and they are who they say they are.

Depending on what documents they have on them, this may be a protracted period of limbo. Just because federal officials cannot ultimately deny you entry if you don't have a passport doesn't mean that you can convince them and just waltz right in with a delay of "anything from a minute to a couple of hours."

Regardless of what your rights are if you ultimately go to court, you will be detained until you can prove your citizenship. It can be painful, and depending on place of birth and other individual's circumstances, it can be expensive.

Aviatrix

But you were previously stating an "opinion" that the OP cannot enter Italy on his EU National Identity Card. That is just totally and utterly incorrect, and you really should refrain from voicing "opinions" about things that are not a matter of opinion and that you clearly don't know anything about.

GUWonder

I am done with this joke. Arguing against your "statement" of "opinion" that runs contrary to fact is pointless. You are entitled to stand by your previous statement as your opinion/belief, but it's misleading to pretend that your above statement is factual when it runs counter to the facts in these matters.

It was cute to try to act as if a current or former US military officer's word on such matters is likely to be as well informed on these matters as the government lawyers with established histories of working on these matters. Keep at it, for it's cute. Kiss, kiss.

Perche

What, no opinions on FT?

As I stated, it was an Air Force Colonel now working at a high level in domestic aviation security. In his position he has SCI clearance, or access to information at Top Secret. I reported here that he told me that a foreign citizen with a green card should not leave the USA without a valid passport under any circumstances. They run a major risk of not getting back into the US, and if that happens they will be barred from returning for years to come. That is all that I posted here concerning a "former military officer," It is important that the OP knows that. Those are facts, despite your sarcasm.

I'm also speaking from experience as a US citizen with a valid passport who has been denied passage through passport control multiple times. I posted about it on FT on May 28, 2012.

"GOES is a no go
It's hit or miss. I applied when it first became available, and was approved. I've had five trips to Europe since. When trying to re-enter the U.S. not only am I not approved at the kiosk, I'm taken to a separate room where I have to wait for them to bring an agent to give me an interview...."

In the detention room I would point out that I never had a problem entering the US until after I was approved for GE. They would say that they could not tell me why, and it was not my right to know. When it is happening it doesn't matter what your opinion of a citizen's legal rights are, or what an immigration lawyer can eventually can do for you in court. The only thing that matters is whether the immigration officer in the detention room believes you, and whether they decide to let you in or detain you.

Ultimately, I always got in, but only after providing extensive justification that I should be, and only after considerable stress and delay. You might blow this off as secondary screening, but if I was not able to convince them, I would be detained and would need a lawyer. CBP has a right to detain you. There is no automatic right to get through passport control and be on your way just because you are a US citizen and assert a right to do so. That is especially the case if you don't have a passport and don't have alternative, unequivocal documentation to prove that you are a citizen.

In my case, an immigration officer finally took pity after I had convinced him to allow me in. He told me that based on what he saw on his screen I should fly to the GOES office in Dallas where I originally applied, and tell them what was happening. He implied that there was something in my file that was leading them to deny me entry into the US, even though I was a citizen with a valid passport, and approved for Global Entry. After I convinced him he said he believes it is an error, and they can fix it, but he refused to tell me what it was.

I went to Dallas and got it fixed. They wouldn't tell me what it was. I've probably crossed back into the US over 20 times since then without any further problems.

It is my opinion and experience that even if you are a citizen you are not guaranteed automatic entry into the US. You can be denied at the discretion of one single official who doesn't believe you and decides to detain you. It isn't much consolation if a lawyer can get you out of detention by going to court.

GUWonder, with your continued sarcasm, I am glad you are no longer responding to this thread.

GUWonder

I'm supposed to be impressed and buy into the logical fallacy of an appeal to "authority" like that on these matters involving citizenship and residency legal/regulatory regimes and policies and producers arising from that? Kiss, kiss, but I'm not impressed. I've been around the government/military and contractor block too long to fall prey to that; maybe if I was an adolescent, then it would get me at a career expo or school.

If your posts' "statement" (of "opinion") relied upon relevant OLA/OLC experience -- USAF experience doesn't generally have a relevance in such matters -- then perhaps your posts' "statement" of "opinion" (running contrary to certain fact) using such reference would be more impressive for informational purposes rather than mostly for entertainment value and as an invitation to get corrected.

US citizens without a US passport at a US port of entry are to be admitted into the US, and we are. It most frequently involves being sent for a secondary to validate claimed identity and citizenship. What US fine for a recognized US citizen without a US passport? What US jail/prison sentence for a recognized US citizen without a US passport? What US deportation for a recognized US citizen without a US passport?

Prospero

Folks,

Can we return to the topic please. The opening topic was submitted by a newcomer to FT, presumably finding this site in search of sound advise. It is abundantly clear from the beginning that the passenger travelling does not have a US passport.

Your assistance is appreciated.

Prospero
Senior Moderator

Perche

I agree! I just read the previous post and was going to alert the moderator that in my opinion, this topic should probably be closed. Too much sarcasm has crept in.

The OP has probably read enough to know that as a non-citizen, he should not try to travel outside of the US with an expired, foreign passport. I doubt that there is much more to say to refute that.

Often1

Let's try to answer OP's question and let's presume for purposes of this that neither the Foreign Minister of Italy nor the US Secretary of State are intervening:

1. OP is a citizen of Italy and a US LPR.
2. OP's Italian passport is expired.
3. OP wants to fly on UA from the USA to Italy.

In order to do so, OP will require a valid Italian passport. Whether Italy admits him on other than a passport is irrelevant. UA will not permit him to board his flight.

GUWonder

Need a passport to fly, but it need not be an Italian passport. [If the OP is not Italian, then there won't be a valid Italian passport for an Italian citizen. The OP did not mention being an Italian citizen, but did mention EU ID; that doesn't indicate being an Italian citizen even as it doesn't rule it out.]

Perche

^^^ I agree.
I posted a link to the United Airlines International Travel Document Requirements for LPR's before this thread turned from a discussion of a travel topic, into debating the respondent. http://www.united.com/web/en-US/cont.../passport.aspx

The link has a handy chart, but unfortunately, I do not have the ability to upload a photo to this post, but it's on the link. According to UA:

1. "A LPR can depart the US if they have a passport, a DHS Travel Document, a permanent resident card, or an ADIT stamp."

From this it would appear to me that with his Green Card, according to United, he can depart.

2. "Examples of documents not acceptable for entry to or departure from the US by air are a drivers license, a birth certificate, a citizenship certificate or card, a naturalization certificate, a matricula consular, a cedula, or a national identification card."

3. It says, "When in doubt, contact the nearest CBP Port-of-entry."

Since different opinions are expressed in this thread, #3 is probably the best advice.

4. "All destination countries, including the United States, have travel document requirements for entry."

UA policy does not specify the entry documents required, but refers to a CBP website for US Citizens and LRP's that states, "travel documents have changed. Find out what documents are required and how to get them." That link takes you to another site that says. "All U.S. citizens and nonimmigrant aliens from Canada, Bermuda, and Mexico departing from or entering the United States from within the Western Hemisphere at air ports of entry are required to present a valid passport." (emphasis mine)

The CBP website doesn't discuss travel to Europe. Instead, one goes to the Department of State, US Passports and International Travel, Bureau of Consular Affairs website. http://travel.state.gov/content/pass...nitiative.html

That says, "Returning to the U.S. from any international location on a commercial plane, private plane, etc., the document required is a US Passport Book."

While GUWonder correctly pointed out that websites are not binding (the laws are sometimes made more strict before the website is updated), one could look to the CFR's, or Code of Federal Regulations that finalized, "New Travel Document Requirements for Travelers Arriving in the United States by Air." CFR's are binding in courts of law, unless Congress passes laws to the contrary that are signed by the President, or the Supreme Court rules them unconstitutional. They are not "dumbed down websites," and are located in the Federal Register.

http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/...l_rule_new.pdf

The CFR Final Rule-Air Phase is lengthy but the high points are that due to security issues people entering the US will be required to show a passport. It also states that they decided to designate only two other documents as "sufficient to denote identity and citizenship." Those are, "a z-card issued by the Coast Guard to Merchant Marines, and a NEXUS air card."

It goes on to say, "Accordingly, all aviation passengers and crew, including commercial flights and general aviation flights (i.e., private planes), who arrive at ports-of-entry in the United States from countries within the Western Hemispshere will be required to possess a valid passport. The only exceptions to this requirement would be for United States citizens who are members of the United States Armed Forces traveling on active duty; travelers who present a Merchant Marine document traveling in conjunction with maritime business; and travelers who present a NEXUS Air card used at a Nexus Air kiosk" (emphasis mine).

In discussing whether non-citizens can leave the US without a passport it says, "Currently, if an individual is not required to present a passport upon entry to the United States, that individual does not need to present a passport upon exit. Under this final rule, however, if an individual must present a passport upon entry, then that individual will also need to bear one upon exit. In the event that non-U.S. citizens passports are lost or stolen, those individuals would need to contact their nearest consular office to have the documents replaced prior to departing the United States."

Interestingly for the OP, the CFR somewhat contradictorily goes on to state, "DHS and DOS are allowing the Permanent Resident Card to be presented upon entry to the U.S. not because the Secretary has made a determination that this is an acceptable alternative document, but because LPRs are not covered by section 7209 of IRTPA. Section 211(b) of the INA specifically establishes that an LPR can present a valid, unexpired Form I-551 (Permanent Resident Card) alone when applying to the U.S. after being absent from the U.S. for less than one year. Form I-551 is a secure, fully adjudicated document that can be verified and authenticated by CBP at ports-of-entry." Note, in this context, they were only referring to travel within the Western Hemisphere. I don't know about from the EU.

The title of the OP's post is, "Going to Italy on an EU ID."

I think the answer to that is no. Are there contradictions between the CFR and the UA website about him being allowed to exit with just a green card? I think so. Is there ambiguity in stating that a valid passport, military or merchant marine travel is required, but you can enter the US from travel within the western hemisphere with just a green card? I think so.

In my opinion, that's not enough reason for the OP to ignore publicly posted federal regulations, purchase an expensive ticket, and head to the airport without a valid passport. If UA allows him to board and he cannot get to his final destination because he only has an EU ID and not a passport, UA will have to fly him back and pay a huge fine. Therefore, UA has a strong incentive not to let him board.

If he does make it to the EU and back and he is denied entry into the US by immigration officials for traveling with an invalid passport, it is likely that he will not be able to return to the US for a long, long time.

This is basically what my first comment was: I think OP's plan on going to Italy with just an EU ID is a bad idea.

Pollo

Go to the Italian Consulate competent for your area and ask for a new passport, no other ways to fly to Italy and back w/o one.

Check here:
http://www.esteri.it/MAE/Templates/S...ACHEHINT=Guest