Forrest Bump

Sure. Speaking of uncivilized places I'd rather tolerate a queue jumper once in while than mobs of possessed barbarians, alcohol drudges, vandalizing and vomiting everywhere. However. Whenever.
That cheeky dude at post office affect me way less than those stalkers selfpersuaded to play the rule-the-world game.
Rest assured the latters have diligently complied with the bus or check in line before set off their heroic deeds.
To each his own civilization.
As for academic descriptions, we risk to slide OT. I'd merely suggest to give a try to Alex Woolf.

jib71

Do you agree that fairness is a mark of civilized society?

As for not asking your other questions - I think those questions are the attempt to redirect the discussion. The topic is whether Italians are rude. That's the title of the thread, right? My point - intended as humorous - is that you can't call a behavior rude in the absence of a civilized framework in which to exercise polite behavior. And a lack of queuing culture is uncivilized because it is unfair. Therefore, Italians are not rude.

It's quite funny - in a nicely ironic way - since we all know that Italy is a terribly civilized place with great food, fine art, music, fashion, culture, history and so on. I don't see any insecure Italians leaping in defense of their civilization here. Perhaps that's because they're confident that they don't need to. It's also a reasonably constructed argument. It doesn't waver from the topic and it amuses me.

If you'd like to "take me to task" on that, go ahead. I'd like to know why you think fairness is not a mark of a civilized society. You make the point that civilized means different things to different people - But does anyone disagree that fairness goes hand in hand with being civilized?

Actually, it's largely a repetition of the answer that I did give to your question a couple of posts above.

jib71

Thanks. And you are quite right.

FlyingHoustonian

Hmmm, so we are not being cheeky anymore I presume.
So we are only cheeky when it suits one purpose but not another.
The vicissitudes of your postings are intriguing; humour and cheeky-ness in one, defensiveness in others. Hmmm...


Well, no not really; what defines fair? In theory "communism" should be fair but in reality it does not work out that way. (just to name one example, there are others.) You cannot have the discussion until you define the terms.


utter nonsense, they directly relate as your brought up the very defenition. so it is fair game.

And as such using examples from various societies is fair game to define what is rude. Let us take a Brit, for example, they might find public urination acceptable. One must take that into account when looking at who is defining "rude". THe mores of the sources should come into play, thus it is very much part of the discussion.

Having lived in Saudi Arabia versus the UK, I can tell what the Saudis think is rude, and what the "west" might are very different. Is one wrong or right?

Oh trust me, I haven't laughed so much in a while, thanks for that! My point is it is very pretentious to think your framework is the one everyone else should go back.

Why is queuing fair? If a rich or well fed person is in a food line ahead of a starving person how is that fair?

Italians can be very rude, by the way. As an Italian citizen I readily admit that, but queue jumping would not be top-of-the-list....

So that stuff is civil to you? Would A tribe in Western Brasil not be civilised as they don't have what you might define as those things (Having lived in Brasil I can tell you the Western Tribes food is not what you might enjoy, or what I enjoyed...). I presume you are affraid to answer again because Italia is not in the question but again, big picture, you brought it up so don't be scared.

Are you infering I am an insecure Italian?

But it does, and like I said, your lack of ability to answer simple questions on topic you opened the doors too amuses me too. thanks! ^

What do you consider fair?

Not even close, but if it makes you feel better to think so I can play along. Does that help?

But the biggest question is, are you the only one who can be "cheeky" or are we allowed to as well? lol


Edit to fix quote box

CDTraveler

Absolutely not.

I think you're confusing "civil" as in polite, with "civilized" or "civilization" as in "an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached" [exact wording courtesy of http://dictionary.reference.com].

Look at some of the great "civilizations" of the past, and you'll find they were anything but fair. Try the ancient Greek city-states, or the British Empire, or China at a dozen different points in history. Each one was noted for formal manners and high culture, but not one of them would be what I consider to be "fair" to all inhabitants.

As someone else mentioned, communism is in theory based on fairness; would you consider most states which have/had communist governments to be known for politeness? Russia in the 60's and '70's was known for rigid enforcement of queue rules, but would you call it overall a "fair" society?

I see an unpleasant arrogance in an individual judging the manners of a society as a whole. To do so puts the opinion of one ahead of shared values of a group, hardly a polite thing to do, is it?

JBP

Old joke: Q: "How do you recognize an Italian line?"
A: "It's 20 wide and 1 deep."

I have been to Italy several times and did not notice any outrageously unruly behavior... Can't say the same for stuff I saw in China and Vietnam though!

BadgerBoi

I had an interesting experience in a Vietnam bank once. It was just a brawling mob of customers, I stood back and scoped the window that I needed to go to, waited until I felt that it was probably my turn and barged through to the teller. It worked for me and nobody else seemed to be put out - if I'd done it any other way I never would have been served.

Alsacienne

Wow! I accept that the question could be a valid one, but the reponse is equally valid ... some are, some aren't. And that applies for 'Are (insert any nationality/race/political party/age group/profession here) rude? ... same answer.

However, it also implies the following question ... Are 'you' rude? because you are only looking for one personality trait in a whole humungous group of people ... and if the answer is 'yes', what does that imply you will do in reaction to this positive answer?

Alex71

We've been to Italy a few times over the past few years and did not encounter excessive rudeness there. Most folks we dealt with were polite and helpful. We had our two kids with us and everyone was super kids friendly.

Of course Italians aren't into the extreme queing that Brits and Americans like, but if you don't leave any gaps you'll be fine.

lhrsfo

I have no idea where you got such an idea. It is totally unacceptable. Does it happen in the streets of London? Yes. Do the Brits like it? No; they are disgusted by it, but cowed into not complaining because a) complaining itself is rude (like all those "rude Americans" who come to London; and b) it might be considered racist to complain, which is also considered, amongst other things, as being rude.

Andy Big Bear

Well, my grandfather was a Venetian, and he was a little gruff compared with most Italians. However, generally Italians are warm hearted folks, even if they don't show it. My advice is usually just remember one thing and you'll be fine "to Italians, there's only two ways to cook, my way and the wrong way." Of course, I came from a family of cooks, so maybe my principles of life are food centric.

FlyingHoustonian

I got it when I lived in London and Edinburgh. Where did you get yours?

Bit of a stretch IMO on your other "points" What is a "rude American" in London? How does one tell if someone is American and what is "rude"?

And what on God's green Earth would be racist about complaining? I've seen many caucasian pissing in the street and seen others yelling back at them to stop. How is race involved? Enlighten us please.

Though I can tell you I know as a former British resident, passport holder and taxpayer I found it rude but YMMV and of course then that opens up my original point about what defines rude...

Are you being cheeky ^^

Forstbetrieb

to be or not to be...

FlyingHoustonian

Timely article in the BBC mag today about the queuing "myth" in Britain:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23087024



Bus queue in Britain which looks similar to some I've seen when I lived around Venezia

Maybe the BBC is being cheeky too:

Badenoch

Cultural differences. Just because it is different somewhere else doesn't make it rude.

For example, in the southern U.S. a typical response to "thank-you" is an off-hand "uh-huh" instead of "you're welcome." Might seem a touch rude in some places but not there.

In Bulgaria, the person who is shaking their head at you during a conversation isn't rude. They are, in fact, agreeing with you.

Don't apply your own standards of behavior or courtesy when elsewhere. It also helps to learn the local standards. You'll be happier for it.