PIO card for inheritance?
Oct 10, 2014, 4:39 am
#16
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Well, I was born Indian, because prior to 1976 German women couldn't pass on their citizenship. So in 1976 or 77 I became German and had to apply for it. We kept both as long as possible. In 2000 the German laws changed again to be more relaxed about dual citizenship, so people like Heidi (who is German by birth since she has a German father) can keep both if they plead a case to the consul in the US why they want/need to keep it.
The rules for people who acquired German citizenship by application (even cases like me) are a bit more complex: if there is a whiff of suspicion that I served in a the armed forces of another country (eg foreign legion, turkish military duty etc) or applied for another citizenship (like the C in OCI) you kiss your German passport bye bye. Of course you can argue your way out of it, but if there is a choice why should I not take it?
The rules for people who acquired German citizenship by application (even cases like me) are a bit more complex: if there is a whiff of suspicion that I served in a the armed forces of another country (eg foreign legion, turkish military duty etc) or applied for another citizenship (like the C in OCI) you kiss your German passport bye bye. Of course you can argue your way out of it, but if there is a choice why should I not take it?
What I don't understand is why choose PIO for the kids instead of OCI for the kids. I had assumed that the children (at least some, if not all, of them) were born in this millennium to a German father under conditions which enable them to get OCI status (based on you or even your father's Indian citizenship history) without the children risking loss of German citizenship under the current legal circumstances applicable to the children and to Germany. Do the Indian processing costs net out as being financially cheaper for them to acquire PIO with the wife rather than acquiring OCI separately from the mother?
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 10, 2014 at 4:45 am
Oct 10, 2014, 5:16 am
#17
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No for my kids OCI/PIO is pretty much the same. PIO for kids costs 162€, OCI 116€. The latter goes thru the MEA/MHA in Delhi, the former is granted locally.
Oct 10, 2014, 11:33 am
#18
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When it comes to the kids, I hope the PIO over OCI choice is not because of some notion that OCI is a recognized state citizenship when even India refuses to recognize it as such and can't recognize it as such absent Indian constitutional and legislative changes. That is because I can't imagine the German courts -- and certainty not the ECJ -- recognizing OCI as an internationally-recognized state citizenship while operating within the current legal regimes absent a bunch of major legal changes and treaty revisions; and add in the fact that the application for the minor is being done by someone on behalf of the child with no veto power by the minor child. That is why I couldn't get and still don't get why the PIO thing for the children when OCI is cheaper. [Not relevant to your situation, but, with OCI, doing the OCI process as a family unit has been even cheaper in the Americas than doing a bunch of separate or even joint PIO applications.]
It almost seems like you like spending more money than you have to, all in hope it pays off later -- like with hoarding miles/points when they seem rather cheap and doing the hoarding so redeeming them can save you money later.
Last edited by GUWonder; Oct 10, 2014 at 11:38 am
Oct 12, 2014, 7:58 pm
#19
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I also didn't realize PIO was processed locally. I had no issues obtaining my OCI, but I can understand wanting to avoid the extra processing.
Oct 13, 2014, 6:28 am
#20
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Yep, after an extensive search for my kiddie passport I finally found it and had all the paper work to get the PIO application done today. The lady at the counter went behind the scenes, the vice consul made some red lines and marks on the applications and a initial some place to indicate approval. Then she collected the fees and I can get the pio cards next week. Much more painless than OCI. Plus the charm of a separate booklet.^
Oct 17, 2014, 11:33 pm
#21
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Actually, a family member had a problem last week with her newly issued PIO card that says "LIFETIME" validity. The airline staff insisted that the document is not valid unless it has a specific expiry date. She was eventually permitted to travel because she also had a previously issued valid tourist visa in her passport (obtained prior to getting the PIO card). Of course, on arrival in India there was no issue with the "LIFETIME" card.
Oct 18, 2014, 1:10 am
#22
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How sensitive are they now to the 6 month validity rule? My sons kid passport expires in less than six months (February 15) and we are travelling next saturday. I plan to renew it when we get the pio (just takes a few hours, German kid passports are done on a printer at the local office) later next week, but could spare me the hassle....
"Lifetime": oh dear, thats like the German driving licences that don't have an expiry date and require explanation (BTW I always enter Dec 31, 2099 if required). I guess I will have t carry the gazette notification with me then.
"Lifetime": oh dear, thats like the German driving licences that don't have an expiry date and require explanation (BTW I always enter Dec 31, 2099 if required). I guess I will have t carry the gazette notification with me then.
Oct 18, 2014, 1:19 am
#23
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The timatic has been updated with the indefinite PIO validity:
Code:
>TIRV/NAMUC/EMMUC/DEDEL
TIMATIC-3 / 18OCT14 / 0715 UTC
NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /EMBARKATION GERMANY (DE)
DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
VISA DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND/OR PASSPORT REPLACING DOCUMENTS MUST BE VALID
ON ARRIVAL.
>MDTI
>MD
PASSPORT EXEMPTIONS:
- HOLDERS OF A GERMAN IDENTITY DOCUMENT ("KINDERAUSWEIS")
ISSUED TO MINORS.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF PERSON OF INDIAN ORIGIN
(PIO) CARD.
MINORS:
- WARNING! IN ACCORDANCE WITH EUROPEAN UNION (EU) LEGISLATION,
ALL MINORS WHO ARE NATIONALS OF GERMANY WILL BE EXPECTED TO
HOLD THEIR OWN PASSPORT OR NATIONAL ID CARD (WHERE
>MDTI
>MD
APPLICABLE) WHEN DEPARTING FROM BULGARIA, CROATIA, CYPRUS,
ROMANIA OR A SCHENGEN MEMBER STATE >TIRGL/SCHN.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- INDIAN LAW DOES NOT PERMIT DUAL NATIONALITY FOR NATIONALS OF
INDIA. >TIDFT/IN/PA/AI/ID30614
- PERSON OF INDIAN ORIGIN (PIO) CARDS HAVE INDEFINITE
VALIDITY, REGARDLESS OF THE EXPIRY DATE SPECIFIED ON THE
CARD, PROVIDED THE PIO CARD HOLDER HAS A VALID PASSPORT.
- HOLDERS OF AN OVERSEAS CITIZEN OF INDIA (OCI) REGISTRATION
CERTIFICATE (BOOKLET) ARE ADVISED TO CARRY THE OCI, EVEN
>MDTI
>MD
THOUGH THEY ARE ISSUED WITH A "U" TYPE VISA.
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID46359
- INDIAN VISA STICKERS HAVE NO SEAL/SIGNATURE FROM THE ISSUING
AUTHORITY.
- NATIONALS OF GERMANY BEING OF PAKISTANI ORIGIN HOLDING
MULTIPLE ENTRY TOURIST VISAS (TYPE T), WITH A VALIDITY
RANGING FROM ABOVE 3 MONTHS AND UP TO 10 YEARS, ARE REQUIRED
TO HAVE AT LEAST 60 DAYS BETWEEN VISITS. (SEE NOTE 54918)
NOTE 54918: THOSE WISHING TO RE-ENTER BEFORE THE 60 DAYS
HAVE EXPIRED MUST CONTACT AN INDIAN MISSION ABROAD TO
>MDTI
>MD
OBTAIN PERMISSION. >TIDFT/IN/VI/NO/ID54918
- VISA EXTENSIONS POSSIBLE, EXCEPT FOR "T" (TOURIST) VISAS AND
TRANSIT VISAS, BY APPLYING AT THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN
AFFAIRS.
- VALID VISAS IN EXPIRED PASSPORTS ARE STILL ACCEPTABLE,
PROVIDED ACCOMPANIED BY A VALID PASSPORT OF THE SAME
NATIONALITY OF THE EXPIRED PASSPORT.
- HOLDERS OF VISAS THAT SPECIFICALLY STATE THE CITY/AIRPORT OF
ENTRY MUST ENTER INDIA AT THE SPECIFIED CITY/AIRPORT.
- NATIONALS OF GERMANY, BELONGING TO A TOURIST GROUP
>MDTI
>MD
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID30072
- RESTRICTED/PROTECTED AREA PERMITS: A PERMIT IS REQUIRED FOR
FOREIGNERS WISHING TO VISIT THE FOLLOWING:
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID25974
WARNING:
- VISITORS HOLDING TOURIST OR BUSINESS VISAS (BOTH SINGLE AND
MULTIPLE-ENTRY) MUST HOLD RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS.
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
>MDTI
>MD
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - SOUTH AFRICA - REQUIREMENT FOR MINORS TO
HOLD BIRTH CERTIFICATE POSTPONED UNTIL 1 JUNE 2015
Oct 18, 2014, 3:08 am
#24
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Location: Exile
Posts: 15,656
Correct. The problem was that TIM (they didn't have TIMATIC access at this station but rather the paper TIM manual) uses the word "INDEFINITE" but the actual PIO card says "LIFETIME", which is different.
Technically, "LIFETIME" validity is definite validity (viz. it expires with the end of life) while "INDEFINITE" validity continues even after life.
Technically, "LIFETIME" validity is definite validity (viz. it expires with the end of life) while "INDEFINITE" validity continues even after life.
Oct 18, 2014, 5:37 am
#25
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The timatic has been updated with the indefinite PIO validity:
Code:
>TIRV/NAMUC/EMMUC/DEDEL
TIMATIC-3 / 18OCT14 / 0715 UTC
NATIONAL GERMANY (DE) /EMBARKATION GERMANY (DE)
DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
VISA DESTINATION INDIA (IN)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND/OR PASSPORT REPLACING DOCUMENTS MUST BE VALID
ON ARRIVAL.
>MDTI
>MD
PASSPORT EXEMPTIONS:
- HOLDERS OF A GERMAN IDENTITY DOCUMENT ("KINDERAUSWEIS")
ISSUED TO MINORS.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR HOLDERS OF PERSON OF INDIAN ORIGIN
(PIO) CARD.
MINORS:
- WARNING! IN ACCORDANCE WITH EUROPEAN UNION (EU) LEGISLATION,
ALL MINORS WHO ARE NATIONALS OF GERMANY WILL BE EXPECTED TO
HOLD THEIR OWN PASSPORT OR NATIONAL ID CARD (WHERE
>MDTI
>MD
APPLICABLE) WHEN DEPARTING FROM BULGARIA, CROATIA, CYPRUS,
ROMANIA OR A SCHENGEN MEMBER STATE >TIRGL/SCHN.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- INDIAN LAW DOES NOT PERMIT DUAL NATIONALITY FOR NATIONALS OF
INDIA. >TIDFT/IN/PA/AI/ID30614
- PERSON OF INDIAN ORIGIN (PIO) CARDS HAVE INDEFINITE
VALIDITY, REGARDLESS OF THE EXPIRY DATE SPECIFIED ON THE
CARD, PROVIDED THE PIO CARD HOLDER HAS A VALID PASSPORT.
- HOLDERS OF AN OVERSEAS CITIZEN OF INDIA (OCI) REGISTRATION
CERTIFICATE (BOOKLET) ARE ADVISED TO CARRY THE OCI, EVEN
>MDTI
>MD
THOUGH THEY ARE ISSUED WITH A "U" TYPE VISA.
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID46359
- INDIAN VISA STICKERS HAVE NO SEAL/SIGNATURE FROM THE ISSUING
AUTHORITY.
- NATIONALS OF GERMANY BEING OF PAKISTANI ORIGIN HOLDING
MULTIPLE ENTRY TOURIST VISAS (TYPE T), WITH A VALIDITY
RANGING FROM ABOVE 3 MONTHS AND UP TO 10 YEARS, ARE REQUIRED
TO HAVE AT LEAST 60 DAYS BETWEEN VISITS. (SEE NOTE 54918)
NOTE 54918: THOSE WISHING TO RE-ENTER BEFORE THE 60 DAYS
HAVE EXPIRED MUST CONTACT AN INDIAN MISSION ABROAD TO
>MDTI
>MD
OBTAIN PERMISSION. >TIDFT/IN/VI/NO/ID54918
- VISA EXTENSIONS POSSIBLE, EXCEPT FOR "T" (TOURIST) VISAS AND
TRANSIT VISAS, BY APPLYING AT THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN
AFFAIRS.
- VALID VISAS IN EXPIRED PASSPORTS ARE STILL ACCEPTABLE,
PROVIDED ACCOMPANIED BY A VALID PASSPORT OF THE SAME
NATIONALITY OF THE EXPIRED PASSPORT.
- HOLDERS OF VISAS THAT SPECIFICALLY STATE THE CITY/AIRPORT OF
ENTRY MUST ENTER INDIA AT THE SPECIFIED CITY/AIRPORT.
- NATIONALS OF GERMANY, BELONGING TO A TOURIST GROUP
>MDTI
>MD
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID30072
- RESTRICTED/PROTECTED AREA PERMITS: A PERMIT IS REQUIRED FOR
FOREIGNERS WISHING TO VISIT THE FOLLOWING:
>TIDFT/IN/VI/AI/ID25974
WARNING:
- VISITORS HOLDING TOURIST OR BUSINESS VISAS (BOTH SINGLE AND
MULTIPLE-ENTRY) MUST HOLD RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS.
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
>MDTI
>MD
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - SOUTH AFRICA - REQUIREMENT FOR MINORS TO
HOLD BIRTH CERTIFICATE POSTPONED UNTIL 1 JUNE 2015
Oct 18, 2014, 10:46 am
#26
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Much ado about nothing. PIO and OCI have merged. There is no requirement that one has to have a PIO card to sell your inherited property. I am currently in the process of selling our inherited house, as a US citizen. No issues except that it is a slightly more hassled since identity verifications are more elaborate.
Oct 20, 2014, 2:53 am
#27
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