Tonight's Event is sponsored by Independence air
Jan 18, 2006, 9:36 pm
#16
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Great Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 582
Originally Posted by haddon90
university of tennessee charters a DL 767. it's not just the football team that goes. i'm sure you have members of the media, and maybe family members as well.
...and, as stupid as it sounds, pro contracts often have clauses such as "joe doe will have, at a minimum one coach seat empty on both sides of him or one first class seat on a chartered plane" or other such language. Thus, 30 players, 3 seats each is 90 right there.
Jan 18, 2006, 11:47 pm
#17
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RDU
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Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
The 'play bill' had them listed in the $25,000+ section
As much as everything else was costing, spending $25K in cash just as a guess to try and get some new passengers is a reasonably good deal. Keep in mind they were losing aroung $1M per day, so that's around 30 minutes or so of operations. At that trade-off, even if it is cash, it was likely a good idea just to pick up some new passengers from the Syracuse area.
Jan 19, 2006, 12:32 am
#18
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DEN and a barrier island near RSW
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Originally Posted by StSebastian
Yes, but that doesn't mean it is a cash payment -- it could be barter to provide that much in tickets to the Symphony which may have never been used. Even if it is cash, I'm sure they justified it as a marketing expense to get new passengers.
As much as everything else was costing, spending $25K in cash just as a guess to try and get some new passengers is a reasonably good deal. Keep in mind they were losing aroung $1M per day, so that's around 30 minutes or so of operations. At that trade-off, even if it is cash, it was likely a good idea just to pick up some new passengers from the Syracuse area.
As much as everything else was costing, spending $25K in cash just as a guess to try and get some new passengers is a reasonably good deal. Keep in mind they were losing aroung $1M per day, so that's around 30 minutes or so of operations. At that trade-off, even if it is cash, it was likely a good idea just to pick up some new passengers from the Syracuse area.
I disagree.
@:-) They were losing $1 mil per day not because they had a single expense pushing them into the red but hundreds of poor decisions and unneccesary expenses. If you run a business you know the best way to save $1 mil is to save $10,000 here and $15,000 there and...so on.
What's the easiest way to eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
Jan 19, 2006, 4:03 am
#19
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PIT/LAX
Programs: US Gold, CO Silver,HH Gold,*wood Gold
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by DENPremEx
Once Denver beats Pitt this weekend you can track Denver's flight to Detroit, its always flight 9202. 
Jan 19, 2006, 10:14 am
#20
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by DENPremEx
I disagree.
@:-) They were losing $1 mil per day not because they had a single expense pushing them into the red but hundreds of poor decisions and unneccesary expenses. If you run a business you know the best way to save $1 mil is to save $10,000 here and $15,000 there and...so on.
What's the easiest way to eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
@:-) They were losing $1 mil per day not because they had a single expense pushing them into the red but hundreds of poor decisions and unneccesary expenses. If you run a business you know the best way to save $1 mil is to save $10,000 here and $15,000 there and...so on.
What's the easiest way to eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
From the very beginning, all sponsorships were first attempted to be done with trade, but if an amazing opportunity came up where tickets were not accepted, a deal was cut with partial cash and partial trade.
After about 6/05 or 7/05, NO sponsorships were paid for in cash. All were done with trade. During this time period (mid '05 - shut down) if the proposing party (an orchestra, for example) would not accept trade, the offer was generally declined.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
Jan 19, 2006, 10:52 am
#21
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DEN and a barrier island near RSW
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Originally Posted by flygirl2004
Let me clarify the SYR Orchestra issue once and for all. It was done in trade for tickets only.
From the very beginning, all sponsorships were first attempted to be done with trade, but if an amazing opportunity came up where tickets were not accepted, a deal was cut with partial cash and partial trade.
After about 6/05 or 7/05, NO sponsorships were paid for in cash. All were done with trade. During this time period (mid '05 - shut down) if the proposing party (an orchestra, for example) would not accept trade, the offer was generally declined.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
From the very beginning, all sponsorships were first attempted to be done with trade, but if an amazing opportunity came up where tickets were not accepted, a deal was cut with partial cash and partial trade.
After about 6/05 or 7/05, NO sponsorships were paid for in cash. All were done with trade. During this time period (mid '05 - shut down) if the proposing party (an orchestra, for example) would not accept trade, the offer was generally declined.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
I understand but whether you realize it or not there is a cost associated with doing deals on a trade basis. Correct me if I'm wrong but FlyI had to pay for their planes? Their fuel? Their labor? Their catering? Etc. Meanwhile they were giving away inventory that they could otherwise sell. This not only equates to lost revenue (FlyI needed every penny they could get their hands on) but it also then cost them more to operate those flights due to the added weight of the additional passengers who weren't paying a dime to fly. Whether they paid cash for those deals or not it still cost FlyI money.
I hope that clears things up a bit also.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad FlyI supported the Syracuse Symphony, SYR is my hometown.
Jan 19, 2006, 2:21 pm
#22
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: VA, USA
Programs: Marriott LTT, United Club Life Member, UA *S
Posts: 995
Originally Posted by Seat2C
Yet Dan Snyder chartered United Airlines aircraft to fly the Redskins to road games. Pretty damned funny.
Jan 19, 2006, 2:34 pm
#23
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: IAD
Programs: MR Gold, *wood Gold, HHonors Silver, UA 1K
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by Annandaler
According to http://www.airliners.net/discussions....main/2545577/ the usual charter flight for the Redskins was a 757 or 767. But the last flight to Seattle was a 747-400.
There's no "salary cap" on chartering airliners. Dan Snyder wants to keep those guys happy and a 744 is a nice bird to do a transcon with your team. I'm a bit surprised Snyder hasn't purchased a nice second hand 762, 763, or 744 and customized it for the team. That would be a nice perk for luring in free agents.
Who's going to be the official airline of the Redskins next year?
Jan 19, 2006, 7:15 pm
#24
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: IAD
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Posts: 2,729
Not to go completely OMNI on this discussion...
Most sports teams do not own their own aircraft. Off of the top of my head, the only two that do are "Madison Square Garden Inc" who owns the a/c the NY Knicks use, and the DTW Red Wings/Tigers share a plane. Most others charter. Pace and Champion (NW subsidiary, NW got out of the sports charter business in '04 I think) are the two largest by far; Vulcan Air runs some 757's for the Portland teams and maybe a few more west coast teams. Miami Air may run a few. PS, for anything but football, it's usually 737's of some sort that are used. OOps, I think the MSY Hornets have a 727.
Most sports teams do not own their own aircraft. Off of the top of my head, the only two that do are "Madison Square Garden Inc" who owns the a/c the NY Knicks use, and the DTW Red Wings/Tigers share a plane. Most others charter. Pace and Champion (NW subsidiary, NW got out of the sports charter business in '04 I think) are the two largest by far; Vulcan Air runs some 757's for the Portland teams and maybe a few more west coast teams. Miami Air may run a few. PS, for anything but football, it's usually 737's of some sort that are used. OOps, I think the MSY Hornets have a 727.
Jan 19, 2006, 10:22 pm
#25
Join Date: May 2003
Location: RDU
Programs: TSA/INS/FBI Platinum (stopped last 12 of 13 int'l returns - the computer broke once)
Posts: 2,638
Originally Posted by DENPremEx
I understand but whether you realize it or not there is a cost associated with doing deals on a trade basis. Correct me if I'm wrong but FlyI had to pay for their planes? Their fuel? Their labor? Their catering? Etc. Meanwhile they were giving away inventory that they could otherwise sell. This not only equates to lost revenue (FlyI needed every penny they could get their hands on) but it also then cost them more to operate those flights due to the added weight of the additional passengers who weren't paying a dime to fly. Whether they paid cash for those deals or not it still cost FlyI money.
If they were filling up a seat that wasn't going to be sold (which was very likely the case since it was rare for a plane to be completely full) then the marginal cost to them to put someone in that seat is probably around $15. (Mainlines consider the cost of an award ticket to be around that amount.) If they valued each ticket as a gift of $250, then for 100 tickets or an "actual cost" of $1500, then that's a pretty good advertising investment to reach some many people of that demographic type.
Yes, there's a cost involved, but I think these deals are a lot smarter than many of the other business deals that are out there. For a relatively small investment in various areas, they get a lot of publicity and outreach to new groups that can be difficult to advertise to otherwise. I saw them as a sponsor of an event here near RDU that got them included on all the printed and online collateral for the price of donating a few tickets.
Jan 20, 2006, 2:41 am
#26
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: DEN and a barrier island near RSW
Programs: 1K (I know, my screen name is outdated), Marriott Plat, *Wood Plat, Five Star, Amex Plat
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by StSebastian
And it costs money to advertise on FlyerTalk, the WSJ, and CNN which they shouldn't have done because it was money they could have used for something else. Obviously they have to do some advertising to get people to know about them and use them for travel.
If they were filling up a seat that wasn't going to be sold (which was very likely the case since it was rare for a plane to be completely full) then the marginal cost to them to put someone in that seat is probably around $15. (Mainlines consider the cost of an award ticket to be around that amount.) If they valued each ticket as a gift of $250, then for 100 tickets or an "actual cost" of $1500, then that's a pretty good advertising investment to reach some many people of that demographic type.
Yes, there's a cost involved, but I think these deals are a lot smarter than many of the other business deals that are out there. For a relatively small investment in various areas, they get a lot of publicity and outreach to new groups that can be difficult to advertise to otherwise. I saw them as a sponsor of an event here near RDU that got them included on all the printed and online collateral for the price of donating a few tickets.
If they were filling up a seat that wasn't going to be sold (which was very likely the case since it was rare for a plane to be completely full) then the marginal cost to them to put someone in that seat is probably around $15. (Mainlines consider the cost of an award ticket to be around that amount.) If they valued each ticket as a gift of $250, then for 100 tickets or an "actual cost" of $1500, then that's a pretty good advertising investment to reach some many people of that demographic type.
Yes, there's a cost involved, but I think these deals are a lot smarter than many of the other business deals that are out there. For a relatively small investment in various areas, they get a lot of publicity and outreach to new groups that can be difficult to advertise to otherwise. I saw them as a sponsor of an event here near RDU that got them included on all the printed and online collateral for the price of donating a few tickets.
Please don't misunderstand me, I wasn't suggesting FlyI shouldn't have advertised at all. The poster I replied to was suggesting, in my opinion, that since these deals weren't done with cash there wasn't a cost associated with them. I was simply pointing out there is a cost associated with them and there is no such thing as a free lunch. You raise valid points however I will take issue with the fact these seats only cost FlyI $15 or so. When FlyI does a $25,000 plus deal and I doubt they were getting the other party to buy off on a $250/ticket value. FlyI was charging no where near that on most routes. Furthermore, its not safe to assume these seats would have gone unsold therefore there is no lost opportunity cost. They very well could have sold some/most of the tickets they gave away for free therefore increasing their "cost" for advertising.
Again, I'm not asserting these were bad deals, I'm just saying that just because they were done with no cash outlay doesn't mean they didn't "cost" FlyI money (and maybe a lot of it).
Jan 20, 2006, 10:33 am
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Originally Posted by Annandaler
According to http://www.airliners.net/discussions....main/2545577/ the usual charter flight for the Redskins was a 757 or 767. But the last flight to Seattle was a 747-400.
Jan 20, 2006, 11:47 am
#28
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: IAD
Programs: MR Gold, *wood Gold, HHonors Silver, UA 1K
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Whats thepoint of taking the 747 most of the plane would be empty and its not like they had is special configured to use the space.
Jan 20, 2006, 3:54 pm
#29
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Originally Posted by FlyingTerp
I see your point, but I'm not a 6'7", 350 lb lineman. Possibly it was offered to them because other aircraft were in use. Doesn't UA have some of their 744s parked?
Jan 20, 2006, 5:19 pm
#30
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
There is no way a whole team would take a 'vip' configured jet. There are too many people. But the 60 'all first class' seats makes a lot more sence for teams, than anything else that has been listed. When you think about it, it would make sense if the NFL just owned (or a fraction of several) of the planes.
Originally Posted by DHAST
I forgot to add that all Canadian sports teams charter with AC to fly around. They have an A320 in a VIP config, with about 60 "all first class" seats. I've been on several different sports charter aircraft, and most of them are nothing to write home about. I actually did see the A320 in revenue service at LAX a few months ago.
