Out of Biz airline standby policy
Dec 29, 2005, 12:15 pm
#46
Join Date: May 2001
Location: IAD
Posts: 6,146
OK, so bumping this up since it doesn't look like it will be long before we see this policy actually play out.
The law is $50 to standby on a 'comparable' route, including co-terminals? WN and other non-interlining LCCs are required to transport passengers too, aren't they?
And you only have 60 days from the date of purchase to dispute the charge with your credit card company and get the tickets refunded?
I have friends who bought DH tix IAD-LAS for 18Jan, return 21Jan. I am not sure when they were purchased. I am probably going to advise them to purchase WN tickets BWI-LAS for those dates, since fares are about $235 RT each including tax. They will purchase two one-way tickets, so that way if DH manages to survive to the 18th they can fly out there but would still have a way back if they fold before the 21st. And if DH stays in business the entire time, they at least have a full credit with WN for 100% of the ticket value.
The law is $50 to standby on a 'comparable' route, including co-terminals? WN and other non-interlining LCCs are required to transport passengers too, aren't they?
And you only have 60 days from the date of purchase to dispute the charge with your credit card company and get the tickets refunded?
I have friends who bought DH tix IAD-LAS for 18Jan, return 21Jan. I am not sure when they were purchased. I am probably going to advise them to purchase WN tickets BWI-LAS for those dates, since fares are about $235 RT each including tax. They will purchase two one-way tickets, so that way if DH manages to survive to the 18th they can fly out there but would still have a way back if they fold before the 21st. And if DH stays in business the entire time, they at least have a full credit with WN for 100% of the ticket value.
Dec 29, 2005, 1:24 pm
#47
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: SFO
Programs: United 1K
Posts: 2,264
Their stock market price has dropped to 3 cents and with the internal letter that went out it doesn't look like they can last more than another week.
Dec 29, 2005, 9:30 pm
#48
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: PHX
Posts: 3,796
If you file for a refund from your credit card, they will have sign a form stating that you didn't get the service you paid for and that you relenquish any recovery to the credit card company.
If you do actually fly but file for a refund claiming you didn't, you're comitting fraud.
As for the standby issue, remember that there will be a lot of other passengers also trying to find standby seats if/when they shut down. With load factors high, you're going to have trouble getting one.
Really, the law's main intent is to get people home that are stranded in the middle of their trips. If you haven't departed yet, you're much better off just filing for the refund.
If you do actually fly but file for a refund claiming you didn't, you're comitting fraud.
As for the standby issue, remember that there will be a lot of other passengers also trying to find standby seats if/when they shut down. With load factors high, you're going to have trouble getting one.
Really, the law's main intent is to get people home that are stranded in the middle of their trips. If you haven't departed yet, you're much better off just filing for the refund.
Jan 2, 2006, 5:47 pm
#49
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
For Climb Guy and others looking to "Cash In" on the disappearance of Flyi and section 145 obligations to other airlines. Consider this point from the above mentioned FAQ:
Read the parts I have bolded.
FlyI has stated that they have the money to provide refunds to all affected pax on flights after 01-05-06. A petition will be made to the Bankruptcy court to release funds for the return or advance ticket sales. If the bankruptcy court provides approves the payment, then IN MY HUMBLE OPINION other US Airlines do not have a section 145 obligation. Passengers will have to accept the refund and rebook with a different carrier if they want to fly.
Obviously the FAA should provide an addendum to the FAQ to cover this situation. Is someone going to contact the FAA? I would but it is inappropriate for an unaffacted Canadian in YYC to make the request. Perhaps Climb Guy could pose the question?
Question 20: Generally, an airline’s contract of carriage states that, in the event of a change of schedule (such as a cessation of service in a market), the carrier’s obligation is to reroute the passenger at no additional cost (it could be on its own service or that of another carrier) or, if the rerouting is unacceptable to the passenger, provide a full refund. Many bankruptcies involve carriers that continue to operate under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code and are authorized by the bankruptcy court to continue to operate their systems on a “business-as-usual” basis. In many or all such Chapter 11 cases, the bankrupt carrier petitions the court to permit refunds to pre-petition passengers to cover situations where, absent the bankruptcy, a refund would have been due. Do other air carriers have a section 145 obligation if:
* (a) a bankruptcy court permits the carrier to provide a refund but the consumer does not want the refund and also does not want to accept being rerouted on the bankrupt carrier?
* (b) whether or not the bankruptcy court permits a refund, the bankrupt carrier is able to reroute passengers affected by a cessation of service on certain other carriers at no additional charge to the passenger in the way that the airline likely would have done through its interline agreements in the absence of the bankruptcy?
Answer 20: Under either circumstance, if the bankrupt airline can reroute the passenger to his or her destination on another of its own flights or pursuant to an agreement with another carrier, the passenger must accept this alternate arrangement, or a full refund, if applicable.
* (a) a bankruptcy court permits the carrier to provide a refund but the consumer does not want the refund and also does not want to accept being rerouted on the bankrupt carrier?
* (b) whether or not the bankruptcy court permits a refund, the bankrupt carrier is able to reroute passengers affected by a cessation of service on certain other carriers at no additional charge to the passenger in the way that the airline likely would have done through its interline agreements in the absence of the bankruptcy?
Answer 20: Under either circumstance, if the bankrupt airline can reroute the passenger to his or her destination on another of its own flights or pursuant to an agreement with another carrier, the passenger must accept this alternate arrangement, or a full refund, if applicable.
FlyI has stated that they have the money to provide refunds to all affected pax on flights after 01-05-06. A petition will be made to the Bankruptcy court to release funds for the return or advance ticket sales. If the bankruptcy court provides approves the payment, then IN MY HUMBLE OPINION other US Airlines do not have a section 145 obligation. Passengers will have to accept the refund and rebook with a different carrier if they want to fly.
Obviously the FAA should provide an addendum to the FAQ to cover this situation. Is someone going to contact the FAA? I would but it is inappropriate for an unaffacted Canadian in YYC to make the request. Perhaps Climb Guy could pose the question?
Jan 2, 2006, 5:58 pm
#50
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: IAD
Programs: Chase Million Miler, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 2,729
Originally Posted by YEG Guy
For Climb Guy and others looking to "Cash In" on the disappearance of Flyi and section 145 obligations to other airlines. Consider this point from the above mentioned FAQ:
Read the parts I have bolded.
FlyI has stated that they have the money to provide refunds to all affected pax on flights after 01-05-06. A petition will be made to the Bankruptcy court to release funds for the return or advance ticket sales. If the bankruptcy court provides approves the payment, then IN MY HUMBLE OPINION other US Airlines do not have a section 145 obligation. Passengers will have to accept the refund and rebook with a different carrier if they want to fly.
Obviously the FAA should provide an addendum to the FAQ to cover this situation. Is someone going to contact the FAA? I would but it is inappropriate for an unaffacted Canadian in YYC to make the request. Perhaps Climb Guy could pose the question?
Read the parts I have bolded.
FlyI has stated that they have the money to provide refunds to all affected pax on flights after 01-05-06. A petition will be made to the Bankruptcy court to release funds for the return or advance ticket sales. If the bankruptcy court provides approves the payment, then IN MY HUMBLE OPINION other US Airlines do not have a section 145 obligation. Passengers will have to accept the refund and rebook with a different carrier if they want to fly.
Obviously the FAA should provide an addendum to the FAQ to cover this situation. Is someone going to contact the FAA? I would but it is inappropriate for an unaffacted Canadian in YYC to make the request. Perhaps Climb Guy could pose the question?
Jan 2, 2006, 6:26 pm
#51
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Originally Posted by DHAST
No, according to what you quoted, a passenger is required to accept an airline offered reroute OR a refund. If no reroute is offered, the passenger is not forced to accept a refund.
Jan 2, 2006, 6:32 pm
#52
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
if the FRAUD will work also largely depends if DH simply closes up shop and walks away, or if their acct dept stays around for awhile.
From Experience Tower Air went it went under simply locked up and walked away within a couple of days, so there was no one for the CCs to contend with. PanAm was around for awhile before they locked the doors forever.
I had purchased tkts on both for other people. As for Tower they flew 1 way and had to purchase tkts to get back home from their Intl trip. I was told I couldnt Dispute just 1/2 the tkt but had to Dispute the whole thing which I did, I was told that if at any time they get proff that a portion or all of the tkt was used Id be liable for the amount that I was Refunded. Never heard from my CC as Tower literally shut down and didnt return.
With PN I had made a few charges on a couple of different CCs. The 1st one I disputed was cause the people Never flew, and the 2nd was for 1/2 used tkts. well I goofed it up and told each card that the card was for the other party. Well I was refunded by both, and Yep was evenyually recharged by the CC where the peopel had actually already completed their travels.
Now remember I was not the passenger on any of those tkts. I dont think the CC company will look at it the same when they find that it was the Card Holder who was the Passenger on the tkts, especially if theres more than 1 tkt. And they wont be so kind when they find out they gave you the Refund and they put in for Reimbursement from DH or its Executor/s, only to find out that you used the tkt as XX is also asking for $$ for having atken you.
PN had worked out most of its stuff before it shut down, Tower just shut down and vanished. If DH stays around that can be very costly to anyone who has FRAUD in mind.
I do commend the person who thought it up, but if they had any Brains whatsoever they would leave(left) it simply as a Great Scheme and not have acted on it. Its NOT worth it to wreck your Credit for the rest of your Life for a couple of Hundred Bucks. Millions well, then I still wouldnt do it but can understand why someone else might have.
From Experience Tower Air went it went under simply locked up and walked away within a couple of days, so there was no one for the CCs to contend with. PanAm was around for awhile before they locked the doors forever.
I had purchased tkts on both for other people. As for Tower they flew 1 way and had to purchase tkts to get back home from their Intl trip. I was told I couldnt Dispute just 1/2 the tkt but had to Dispute the whole thing which I did, I was told that if at any time they get proff that a portion or all of the tkt was used Id be liable for the amount that I was Refunded. Never heard from my CC as Tower literally shut down and didnt return.
With PN I had made a few charges on a couple of different CCs. The 1st one I disputed was cause the people Never flew, and the 2nd was for 1/2 used tkts. well I goofed it up and told each card that the card was for the other party. Well I was refunded by both, and Yep was evenyually recharged by the CC where the peopel had actually already completed their travels.
Now remember I was not the passenger on any of those tkts. I dont think the CC company will look at it the same when they find that it was the Card Holder who was the Passenger on the tkts, especially if theres more than 1 tkt. And they wont be so kind when they find out they gave you the Refund and they put in for Reimbursement from DH or its Executor/s, only to find out that you used the tkt as XX is also asking for $$ for having atken you.
PN had worked out most of its stuff before it shut down, Tower just shut down and vanished. If DH stays around that can be very costly to anyone who has FRAUD in mind.
I do commend the person who thought it up, but if they had any Brains whatsoever they would leave(left) it simply as a Great Scheme and not have acted on it. Its NOT worth it to wreck your Credit for the rest of your Life for a couple of Hundred Bucks. Millions well, then I still wouldnt do it but can understand why someone else might have.
Jan 2, 2006, 6:41 pm
#53
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: DL - Plat, Marriott - Plat, Hilton - Diamond, SPG- Plat, National- ES
Posts: 1,857
Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
to lock a seat should i book a fullyrefundable fair on another airline. Go that airlines ticket desk and cancel the fully refundable ticket and use the new 'open seat' for my non-res reservation.
Jan 2, 2006, 6:48 pm
#54
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: DL - Plat, Marriott - Plat, Hilton - Diamond, SPG- Plat, National- ES
Posts: 1,857
Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
Now i am sure there is some thing I don't know about flying standby, .
The only statement you have made that makes sense is the sentence above.
You have never flown standby that's pretty apparent. WHen you get to spend a few days in the airport and miss your classes let us know what you think then.
Not to mention that when you CC company finds out you defrauded them it's going to be messy.
Jan 2, 2006, 6:51 pm
#55
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
Originally Posted by DHAST
No...... If no reroute is offered, the passenger is not forced to accept a refund.
Please be aware that under section 145 of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act (November 19, 2001) Congress has obligated U.S. airlines to offer stand-by transportation to passengers holding un-refunded tickets for airlines that have ceased operations due to insolvency or bankruptcy. The Act stipulates that passengers must make their request to carriers serving the same routes as the bankrupt carrier and must do so within 60 days of the cessation of service. The U.S. Department of Transportation has ruled that airlines who offer the stand-by transportation may charge $50 one-way per person to cover related expenses.
When is the next court date? I suspect we will have an answer by the end of the week.
Jan 2, 2006, 7:09 pm
#56
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
What about customers on awards flights?
Originally Posted by YEG Guy
FlyI's notice to their customers makes reference to section 145 coming into effect on UNREFUNDED tickets. The exact excerpt is (I have added the emphasis):
I still support the my original position that once the Bankruptcy court approves automatic refunds then the section 145 obligation is removed from the remaining carriers. Passengers will receive their refund and have to book for confirmed space travel at whatever the going rate is (general consensus is that UA will jack fares up and/or remove the DH competitive fare equivalents).
When is the next court date? I suspect we will have an answer by the end of the week.
I still support the my original position that once the Bankruptcy court approves automatic refunds then the section 145 obligation is removed from the remaining carriers. Passengers will receive their refund and have to book for confirmed space travel at whatever the going rate is (general consensus is that UA will jack fares up and/or remove the DH competitive fare equivalents).
When is the next court date? I suspect we will have an answer by the end of the week.
Jan 2, 2006, 7:09 pm
#57
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
What about customers on award flights?
Originally Posted by YEG Guy
FlyI's notice to their customers makes reference to section 145 coming into effect on UNREFUNDED tickets. The exact excerpt is (I have added the emphasis):
I still support the my original position that once the Bankruptcy court approves automatic refunds then the section 145 obligation is removed from the remaining carriers. Passengers will receive their refund and have to book for confirmed space travel at whatever the going rate is (general consensus is that UA will jack fares up and/or remove the DH competitive fare equivalents).
When is the next court date? I suspect we will have an answer by the end of the week.
I still support the my original position that once the Bankruptcy court approves automatic refunds then the section 145 obligation is removed from the remaining carriers. Passengers will receive their refund and have to book for confirmed space travel at whatever the going rate is (general consensus is that UA will jack fares up and/or remove the DH competitive fare equivalents).
When is the next court date? I suspect we will have an answer by the end of the week.
Jan 2, 2006, 7:14 pm
#58
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
What about customers on award flights?
I orginated from Overseas, turns out TW rebooked me onto a Foreign Carrier but Only in Coach and refunded me the # of miles bet what a 1st Class was compared to a Coach (One Way of cause).
I hoped since it was booked in "Y" that if I went with DL I would be able to use an upgrade cert that I was holding onto and about to expire. No Dice on the Up but DL took me withoyt any Additional payment on my part.
Jan 2, 2006, 7:21 pm
#59
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Programs: UA 1K, AA 2MM, Bonvoy LT Plt, Mets fan
Posts: 5,073
Originally Posted by ClimbGuy
What about customers on award flights?
Quit trying to game the system for inconsequential gain. Extend your sympathy to the families who are starting the new year by losing their jobs and having their plans for the future put on hold.
(By the way: Section 145 is new, since 9/11; I don't remember what happened with Vanguard, and can't think of anyone else who has gone out of business since then.)
Jan 2, 2006, 7:27 pm
#60
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Trans-meridian went out in September. As for the families, I know the station manager at my home airport and am going to buy him a gift before I go over there tomorrow, he has been very helpful over the past year and we know each other by name. I have no intention of listing my charitable endeavors, however I would like to assure people I am not a 'cheat.'
Originally Posted by CO FF
You'll get a refund. They'll give you your miles back.
Quit trying to game the system for inconsequential gain. Extend your sympathy to the families who are starting the new year by losing their jobs and having their plans for the future put on hold.
(By the way: Section 145 is new, since 9/11; I don't remember what happened with Vanguard, and can't think of anyone else who has gone out of business since then.)
Quit trying to game the system for inconsequential gain. Extend your sympathy to the families who are starting the new year by losing their jobs and having their plans for the future put on hold.
(By the way: Section 145 is new, since 9/11; I don't remember what happened with Vanguard, and can't think of anyone else who has gone out of business since then.)