New redemption levels plus a free night

[ALW]

I don't like the way I worded that, let my try to rephrase:

"If every property moves up one level, with a new level created at the top, then effectively the levels are the same and the prices are raised."

=aw

[Notenut]

Originally Posted by saad

hold on....weren't there a number of posts earlier in this thread & in a couple of other threads which stated that every hilton property will be raised by atleast one level from next month....am i just imagining that or has something changed over the last few days????

It's true, that here:

Official Post from Hilton HHonors, 2010 Hotel Category and Point Redemption Changes

at post #139, Andrea said that the old cat 1 would become new cat 2, 2 would become 3, etc.

And some here erroneously took those words as "bible", but it appears that she was only describing the trend in general. There seem to be certain percentage of exceptions to the general rule.

[sorro]

I think that if HHonors would be more forthcoming on some of these things, they would come out looking a lot better. From my understanding of the USA Today article, a lot of the hotels are "dropping a level", so the Hilton Tokyo stays at 40000 points (still a cat 6 instead of following its level up to cat 7 and 50000 points) as well as 74% of hotels dropping 1 level to their current point redemption. 16% drop 2 levels and 10% stay in their current level and increase their points. That is not nearly as bad as the across-the-board increase that everybody was expecting and I would think it would change people's perception on the increase this year. Nevertheless, they have riled up Golds/Diamonds/Silvers everywhere as a result of these supposed changes. Of course, perhaps the hue and cry caused point redemption levels to change, and if that was the case, I appreciate HHonors listening...but it would have been much better for them to have communicated with us as soon as possible so that they would have looked more responsive and open with us.

[Keyser]

Originally Posted by sorro

I think that if HHonors would be more forthcoming on some of these things, they would come out looking a lot better. From my understanding of the USA Today article, a lot of the hotels are "dropping a level", so the Hilton Tokyo stays at 40000 points (still a cat 6 instead of following its level up to cat 7 and 50000 points) as well as 74% of hotels dropping 1 level to their current point redemption. 16% drop 2 levels and 10% stay in their current level and increase their points. That is not nearly as bad as the across-the-board increase that everybody was expecting and I would think it would change people's perception on the increase this year. Nevertheless, they have riled up Golds/Diamonds/Silvers everywhere as a result of these supposed changes. Of course, perhaps the hue and cry caused point redemption levels to change, and if that was the case, I appreciate HHonors listening...but it would have been much better for them to have communicated with us as soon as possible so that they would have looked more responsive and open with us.

i think you are right....everyone was upset about the fact that hilton was raising the redemption levels, but what really got everyone going was the fact that hilton was also raising each property level by a category or 2....both these things combined was why i was washing my hands off hilton....if they actually drop a number of categories now then that would change the whole equation....

[Jailer]

Originally Posted by sorro

I think that if HHonors would be more forthcoming on some of these things, they would come out looking a lot better. From my understanding of the USA Today article, a lot of the hotels are "dropping a level", so the Hilton Tokyo stays at 40000 points (still a cat 6 instead of following its level up to cat 7 and 50000 points) as well as 74% of hotels dropping 1 level to their current point redemption. 16% drop 2 levels and 10% stay in their current level and increase their points. That is not nearly as bad as the across-the-board increase that everybody was expecting and I would think it would change people's perception on the increase this year. Nevertheless, they have riled up Golds/Diamonds/Silvers everywhere as a result of these supposed changes. Of course, perhaps the hue and cry caused point redemption levels to change, and if that was the case, I appreciate HHonors listening...but it would have been much better for them to have communicated with us as soon as possible so that they would have looked more responsive and open with us.

(bolding mine)

Adding what I think that I know about category creep to what I think the article says, I interpret it that 74% of hotels will increase one level, 16% will not increase any levels, and 10% will increase two levels.

[sorro]

Originally Posted by Jailer

(bolding mine)

Adding what I think that I know about category creep to what I think the article says, I interpret it that 74% of hotels will increase one level, 16% will not increase any levels, and 10% will increase two levels.

If that's the case, they're still in trouble with almost everybody. The wording seemed to indicate your perception was accurate, but then the charts that went with the wording (and the examples that went with them) seemed to indicate that most hotels would keep their current categories. I'm hopeful for the latter. If Hilton would just get on the ball and let the award chart out, all this speculation could end.
On another note, the AXON award as it is now will become rather worthless. I can get the same amount of nights for 9,000 points + less a night. If they bump it up to include Cat 7 hotels and/or decrease the points needed, it will become a benefit again.

[yul lite]

Wanted to add that the following two hotels will also move categories:

London Metropole will move from level 5 to level 6 (so 40,000 points per night after January 15).

Malta Hilton will move from level 5 to level 7 (so 50,000 points per night after Jan 15)

[Beckles]

What is shown in this USA Today article is not very consistent. First, it says:

Originally Posted by USA Today Article

Hilton will move 547 properties (or 16% of total) into a cheaper points category, while it will move 354 others (or 10%) into a pricier category. (These changes come on top of the 20% increase in the number of points required for a free night's stay across Hilton's system.)

So, if we set aside the "renaming" of the categories, which is consistent with the claim that the changes are "on top of the 20% increase", then even once the categories were renamed and the point levels increased, 10% of the properties would then be moving to a higher category.

However, later in the same article they define "staying the same", "getting pricier", and "getting cheaper":

Originally Posted by USA Today Article

Hotels that will stay in the same points category:

Hilton Waikiki Prince Kuhio 40,000 40,000
Hilton New Orleans Riverside 40,000 40,000
Hilton Short Hills 40,000 40,000
Hilton London Canary Wharf 40,000 40,000
Hilton Manchester Deansgate 40,000 40,000
Conrad Indianapolis 40,000 40,000
Hilton Tokyo 40,000 40,000
Embassy Boston At Logan Airport 40,000 40,000
Conrad Miami 40,000 40,000
The Saratoga Hilton 40,000 40,000

Hotels that will be raised into a pricier point category:

Hilton Orlando 40,000 50,000
Conrad Tokyo 40,000 50,000
Hilton San Diego Resort And Spa 40,000 50,000
Conrad Hong Kong 40,000 50,000
Hilton Times Square 40,000 50,000
Hilton Hawaiian Village 40,000 50,000
Hilton Bentley Miami South Beach 40,000 50,000
Chicago Thewit A Doubletree Hotel 35,000 40,000
Hilton Alexandria Old Town 35,000 40,000
Hilton Los Angeles Checkers 35,000 40,000

Hotels that will be dropped into a less-expensive point category:

Fiji Beach Resort & Spa By Hilton 40,000 35,000
Hilton Fort Lauderdale Marina 40,000 35,000
Embassy Suites By Hilton Mexico City Reforma 35,000 30,000
Embassy Suites Fort Myers Estero 35,000 30,000
Hampton Inn Corpus Christi Padre Island 35,000 30,000
Homewood Suites Bakersfield Ca 30,000 25,000
Hilton Baton Rouge Capitol Center 30,000 25,000
Homewood Suites Mobile East Bay Daphne 30,000 25,000
Hampton Inn Alexandria 20,000 12,500
Hampton Houston Texas 20,000 12,500

This does not indicate the same "on top of the 20% increase" mentioned earlier in the same article.

So, if using those same categories and "staying the same" is going to be 74%, and only 10% are "getting pricier", there's been a whole lot of hoopla here on FT about a pretty minor change.

[Keyser]

Originally Posted by Beckles

What is shown in this USA Today article is not very consistent. First, it says:
So, if we set aside the "renaming" of the categories, which is consistent with the claim that the changes are "on top of the 20% increase", then even once the categories were renamed and the point levels increased, 10% of the properties would then be moving to a higher category.

However, later in the same article they define "staying the same", "getting pricier", and "getting cheaper":
This does not indicate the same "on top of the 20% increase" mentioned earlier in the same article.

So, if using those same categories and "staying the same" is going to be 74%, and only 10% are "getting pricier", there's been a whole lot of hoopla here on FT about a pretty minor change.

if 74% of the properties remain the same then that is not what was indicated earlier....for the last couple of months, what has been mentioned here is that each property is going up by atleast one category....

[Beckles]

Originally Posted by saad

if 74% of the properties remain the same then that is not what was indicated earlier.

As I said, to me it seems the article is inconsistent in the first claim that the changs are "on top of the 20%" increase compared to how they describe the changes later in the same article. In other words, though the article addresses where a handful of hotels are going, it doesn't definitively answer the question of the overall changes because of the inconsistency.

Originally Posted by saad

for the last couple of months, what has been mentioned here is that each property is going up by atleast one category.

I have never agreed with that characterization as I voiced as early as October 20 in this post. I had always assumed that just like every other year, some hotels would otherwise be moving down anyway, which in the case of the increse in point levels would likely mean they would actually stay the same this year, and maybe a few hotels would move down more than one level resulting in a decrease for a small number of hotels.

The USA Today article lists a minimum of 10 hotels that are moving down in points required, which in fact would mean they are moving down two categories next year.

[kevino]

Yes, the article is confusing.

Given the article talks about an overall 20% increase, I'm not hopeful.

The article should have not mentioned "categories" in listing the specific hotels and instead grouped them as: Hotels requiring more points next year; Hotels requiring the same points next year; and Hotels requiring fewer points next year.

If it is true that 16% of hotels will require fewer points for a free night next year, then that is a good thing. How do I get to Fiji?

The article doesn't say what percent will require the same points as this year. I assume the great majority of hotels will require more points next year, but I hope I'm wrong.

[Jailer]

Originally Posted by saad

if 74% of the properties remain the same then that is not what was indicated earlier....for the last couple of months, what has been mentioned here is that each property is going up by atleast one category....

I think what we have here is a two-part process. The USA Today article speaks to phase one and that as part of the yearly reclassification of individual hotels 10% are going up; 16% are going down: not really big news. Phase two is the re-ordering of the category system. I visualize an excel spreadsheet where the columns stay the same and all the data (the hotels) moves to the right (causing the need to create another column on the right). This is the 20% across the board increase that the article speaks of (although it is not exactly a 20% across the board increase).

I think that the confusing thing is that both phases are happening at the same time; as the entire grid moves to the right some hotels within the grid move to the right (10%) and some to the left (16%).

[christianj]

Originally Posted by Jailer

I think what we have here is a two-part process. The USA Today article speaks to phase one and that as part of the yearly reclassification of individual hotels 10% are going up; 16% are going down: not really big news. Phase two is the re-ordering of the category system. I visualize an excel spreadsheet where the columns stay the same and all the data (the hotels) moves to the right (causing the need to create another column on the right). This is the 20% across the board increase that the article speaks of (although it is not exactly a 20% across the board increase).

The confusing thing is that both phases are happening at the same time; as the entire grid moves to the right some hotels within the grid move to the right (10%) and some to the left (16%).

I think Jailers explanation is spot on. I also think the article which was referenced by the HHRep in one of the other threads on this topic in the forum is misleading and confusing. I'm going to quote what I wrote there:

Originally Posted by christianj

I think that this article is somewhat misleading and makes the program changes sound less horrible then they actually are. Overall the description is confusing but the most important part of the information IMHO is being lost in the article....the overall close to 20% devaluation. The following is a direct quote from the article with the most important part set in bold:

"If you have Hilton HHonors points, expect the majority - 2,575, or 74% - of Hilton's 3,476 properties to stay in the same category, HHonors chief Jeffrey Diskin told me in a recent interview. The rest?

Hilton will move 547 properties (or 16% of total) into a cheaper points category, while it will move 354 others (or 10%) into a pricier category. (These changes come on top of the 20% increase in the number of points required for a free night's stay across Hilton's system.) "

Confusing since Mr. Diskin's makes it sound like 74% of the properties will stay in the same category when we know that they will require more points per award stay. Gotta love the marketing lingo these guys are using to make this sound less horrible!!

I really wish HH would stop beating around the bush with this and just post the darn award chart with the corresponding hotel categories already!!!

[Keyser]

Originally Posted by Beckles

As I said, to me it seems the article is inconsistent in the first claim that the changs are "on top of the 20%" increase compared to how they describe the changes later in the same article. In other words, though the article addresses where a handful of hotels are going, it doesn't definitively answer the question of the overall changes because of the inconsistency.
I have never agreed with that characterization as I voiced as early as October 20 in this post. I had always assumed that just like every other year, some hotels would otherwise be moving down anyway, which in the case of the increse in point levels would likely mean they would actually stay the same this year, and maybe a few hotels would move down more than one level resulting in a decrease for a small number of hotels.

The USA Today article lists a minimum of 10 hotels that are moving down in points required, which in fact would mean they are moving down two categories next year.

Originally Posted by Jailer

I think what we have here is a two-part process. The USA Today article speaks to phase one and that as part of the yearly reclassification of individual hotels 10% are going up; 16% are going down: not really big news. Phase two is the re-ordering of the category system. I visualize an excel spreadsheet where the columns stay the same and all the data (the hotels) moves to the right (causing the need to create another column on the right). This is the 20% across the board increase that the article speaks of (although it is not exactly a 20% across the board increase).

I think that the confusing thing is that both phases are happening at the same time; as the entire grid moves to the right some hotels within the grid move to the right (10%) and some to the left (16%).

i think what we really need is for hilton to come out with the list of properties moving up & down (or staying the same)....

[Beckles]

Originally Posted by kevino

Yes, the article is confusing.

Given the article talks about an overall 20% increase, I'm not hopeful.

I do not assume that the author of the article is more knowledgable than me about this topic. If we remove the single paranthetical comment that "These changes come on top of the 20% increase in the number of points required for a free night's stay across Hilton's system." it would seem to indicate that:

Hotels that will stay in the same points category - 74%
Hotels that will be raised into a pricier point category - 10%
Hotels that will be dropped into a less-expensive point category - 16%

It actually seems clear, it's only 1) the parenthetical comment; and 2) the previous expectation that most, if not all, hotels would become more expensive; that make it seem that this explanation is not correct.

Originally Posted by Jailer

I think what we have here is a two-part process. The USA Today article speaks to phase one and that as part of the yearly reclassification of individual hotels 10% are going up; 16% are going down: not really big news. Phase two is the re-ordering of the category system. I visualize an excel spreadsheet where the columns stay the same and all the data (the hotels) moves to the right (causing the need to create another column on the right). This is the 20% across the board increase that the article speaks of (although it is not exactly a 20% across the board increase).

The specific hotels listed appear to be after both Phase one and Phase two are implemented though, we can tell this because for the hotels getting more expensive it includes seven hotels moving to 50,000 points, which is Phase two in your venacular. We know Phase one is also included in the article since it lists some hotels getting less expensive.

Originally Posted by saad

i think what we really need is for hilton to come out with the list of properties moving up & down (or staying the same)....

Agree, Hilton has nothing to lose PR-wise now because everyone is expecting the worst, while it now appears possible that the changes will be much less severe than has been discussed here and in the press.