DanTravels

The visitor information station (VIS) at 9,200 feet (2,800 meters) is open to all ages and human conditions. That's where the "hands-on" telescopes are. I haven't seen any 3-year-olds or infants visiting any of the several observatories I have worked at in the summit area (13,650-13,770 feet / 4140-4200 meters). Sorry if I didn't differentiate clearly between the two before.

I don't know who you have spoken to other than FTers, but if you talk to tourists, you are sampling perhaps 1 day in each person's life. Anyone who works on Mauna Kea for any length of time sees cases of people needing medical oxygen to survive up there even among professional astronomers who have been coming there repeatedly for years, and anyone who serves in a public-facing capacity (staff or volunteer at the VIS) will have seen more than that, because of dealing with tourists, who statistically come a little less prepared.

Also, people in the Mauna Kea 'ohana will rarely volunteer information about the negative things that happen unless you ask, because it might give the impression that going up the mountain is more risky than it is - and we do not want people to have that impression, any more than we want them to have the impression that it is not risky at all. We like people to understand that what they are doing can be done at very little risk, as long as they follow our stated recommendations, directions from cabin crew, and posted and lighted plac... oh, sorry, I got sidetracked.

When you come to Mauna Kea, I am sure you will stop at the VIS, and I am sure you will talk to whatever staff or volunteers are on duty there that day, so you can get the input of people other than just me.

I have been there many days, so it is hard to remember specific cases (only a few stand out), but so far, I have been fortunate and not seen anyone die. We collectively try very hard to avoid people dying, through informing people of the health and safety hazards and the driving hazards, and I think we have only had a few fatalities in the last decade (mainly due to driving).

I have seen multiple tourists on tours I've led - all over 16, acclimatized for a minimum of 1 hour at the VIS, not pregnant, no SCUBA in the last 24 hours, no known heart or lung conditions that would be problematic - pass out at the summit and require oxygen (and in at least one case, require some resuscitation/rescue breathing on the part of a Ranger). I've evacuated hikers who told me they'd been puking from the altitude (also evacuated their dog). I've had plenty of tourists leave halfway through a tour because someone in their party was feeling nauseous, faint, or whatever. I've gotten pelted with gravel while helping the county medevac helicopter land after a tourist brought up by a commercial tour van had seizures at 4,000 meters. I've seen people who felt sick or faint or needed oxygen even at the VIS. Those are a few things that stick in my mind.

I am of course not there every day, so there are a lot of things that I don't see, that other people do. That's why I hope you will visit the VIS and talk to whoever is there that day.

I think the hazard pages I linked to previously do say things about kids being more susceptible to things, but I have not read the underlying scientific literature.

Every father likes to say the same of his children, even me - but I have seen that lack of oxygen will make even adults get "goofy," and I know my 11-year-old has her moments even at sea level, so I do not expect much.

And just to note again that there remain the questions of how quick your ascent was, what elevation you had been staying at before the ascent, and whether an extra 400 meters would have made you feel any worse.

What I usually tell an astronomer who is feeling a little bad on the summit is this: Everyone has their good days and their bad days. For me, a bad day on the summit means I get a little bit of a headache, which goes away as soon as I drink water or descend below 4,000 meters. For a few people, a bad day is lying on the ground out cold with a Ranger trying to get them to come around. For most adults I have seen, a bad day would be somewhere in between.

safigan

Didn't read every last post, so I apologize if some of this info has been covered:

Mauna Kea stargazing: Have been 4 times. I rent a car from Harper in Hilo (do an internet search) for the only rental cars allowed to drive to the summit. If you want to break the terms of your rental contract, any SUV should be able to make it to the top. Children under 15 can go as far as the visitor's center at 9,000 ft. It's worth it to stop here and not go to the top, as they set up telescopes right after sunset. Stop here for at least an hour (preferably longer if you don't want a headache or cramped bowels). Remember, you're climbing from sea level. You don't need a third party tour unless you need transportation or clothing to the summit (you did pack your parka for your Hawaiian vacation, didn't you?) The Keck observatory is open for a few hours on Sunday if you can plan to be there then, otherwise you'll only see the outsides of the observatories.

My recommendation: Stopping at the visitors center with all the layers of clothes you have is still a fantastic experience. You can buy a souvenir jacket or cap there. The summit is optional, but summitting the tallest mtn. in the world (as measured from the sea floor) is pretty cool, as well as the billions $ in scientific equipment. Put the cap on an empty water bottle and watch it get crushed by increasing atmospheric pressure on your way down.

DanTravels

Officially, the Keck I visitor gallery is open 10-4 Mon-Fri. The weekend day crew may leave it unlocked for a few hours on Saturday or Sunday if they're feeling generous or whatever, but it's not something I would expect to happen consistently.

The VIS summit tours on Saturday and Sunday afternoon currently go into the Keck I visitor gallery, but for liability reasons can't take people with them who are not on the tour.

I was up Saturday afternoon and checked the hours on the door at Keck, and yeah, it's Mon-Fri. There were some guys who had driven up figuring on going in on Saturday, and were locked out.

mantas

I know what you mean. One of them is more responsible than the other. As you may guess the little one is the playful one. I will work on that issue to be sure. If behavior is not adjusted "to perfection", I won't push the situation.


It was in 1979 or so. We left in the morning in a tour bus from Mendoza City (elevation 746.5 m or 2,449 ft - that is not too much over the sea level) and we reached the Christ Redeemer of Andes (3,832 metres or 12,572 ft) by noon, after stopping at Puente del Inca (Bridge of Inca, 2740 mts or 8,989 ft) and Las Cuevas village (3151 mts or 10,337 ft). As far as I recall, nobody talked about any acclimatization, but as I pointed out before, this is Southamerica so mostly you are on your own, even more back then.
And I am not saying that it will be the same experience at Mauna Kea summit, just doing some kind of comparison between the experience I have had and the warnings about Mauna Kea ascension.
And you are right that I do not know what could be the effect of the extra 400 mts. And also I do not know if my body will behave the same as in 1979, and also about the body behave of my kids. YES, there are many "If"s. And I know that are some risks. I am trying to take these risks to the minimun, by learning and by listen carefully to kind people like you who take the time to answer me, and consulting medical doctors speciallized in AMS.
Just then I will decide whether I go on or not.

momia

It is a pretty spot though, and the manta rays are supposed to be very cool...if you are around just after sunset (and they actually come out.)

We stayed across the way from the Sheraton and I took a night cruise that lets you snorkle with the rays. Awesome. They swim in a circle from top to bottom and you hover above them. Some times they touch the snorklers (this happened to me) and that is cool. If you dive you can do that on this boat as well.

mantas

I WILL stay at Sheraton. Which one of the many cruises or snorkeling/divers boat operator did you take?

momia

Don't remember but it's easy to find. It leaves from the marina just north of the Sheraton. I'm sure the concierge can help you. A quik search led to this link;

http://www.fair-wind.com/hula-kai/manta-dive-hawaii

I think I took this cruise. The cruise itself is a short distance-maybe ten minutes.

Ancien Maestro

That's great to know that we can visit the lower observatory with infants and young children.. We're planning to go back to BI for the fifth time next year, and will want to definitely go up the observatory with the kids the next time out.

Haleakala on Maui.. do you recommend the young kids to go up there too?

bocastephen

You can take young ones to both - Haleakala is a little more than 10k feet. In both cases, however, do not drive straight up. You want to acclimate at different altitudes for awhile and work your way up slowly - adults can handle the quick change, but the younger kids might not tolerate it.

When at the top of Haleakala, just take it easy - keep the kids from running around or getting hyper and that will reduce the chance they will have a reaction or get sick. If they exhibit any symptoms of hypoxia, it's time to head back down.

DanTravels

Yeah. I would add that at "Red Hill" on the top of Haleakala, there's basically just a parking lot and a scenic viewpoint, and not an awful lot to do. The few observatories down the side road are either unmanned, classified, or not open to the public - generally pretty unwelcoming. A little way down the road there's a visitor center for Haleakala National Park, which of course has the requisite exhibits, gift shop, etc. and will probably hold the attention of younger kids a little better.

Ancien Maestro

Cool.. good advice. This last time out, we avoided going up the altitudes on both island because of my 3 month old and 4 year old. It's good to know the tips if we take it easy, we could have done the lower observatory on Mauna Kea and Haleakala with the kids.

DanTravels

Absolutely... although having gone to the VIS on Mauna Kea when my daughter was 4 or so, I would note that the ends of Saddle Road are still plenty twisty, and the Haleakala road is, too... so take it extra-easy if you don't want puking kids.

I do have at least one colleague on Mauna Kea who won't bring her 10-month-old even up to the VIS, and I respect her cautious parenting. I figure the air pressure at that elevation is comparable to being on a plane, though, so if your kid survives the flight here...

jan_az

Everyone is different. When I was going to Cusco everyone warned me I would be sick. Not only was I not sick, I could still smoke ( pissed my daughter off <g> ). However I will still approach going to the summit with caree

mantas

Ok. I talked a couple of days ago with a medical doctor who is also an alpinist and recently touch the Everest Summit (one of the Everest mission this summer, around end of may, just by the time the 15 y.o. america kid reach the top and get world media attention).
Well, this doctor told me that I can go on with my girls (11 & 9), no particular difficulties, just pay attetion to kids behave. Just have some ibuprofen at hand in case of some light headache. Also told me to go straight to the top, to not stop at the VIS (excepct for bathroom urgencies). Acute Mountain Sickeness symptons are usually to appear almost 4 -6 hours and specially is you sleep in the highness. and is obvious that I will be up there no longer than 1 1 1/2 hs.
So I will go for it and then I will tell you the experience.

On the other hand I had a new problem. After 3 mails to Harper Rental Car, which they never answered, I called yesterday (international call, hard to understand rental condicitons by phone).
Money is not an issue in this case, cause you want to be covered.
BUT (a big BUT) they do not offer LIS insurance (or SLI or Extended Protection or whatever).
So I will be on my own in case of any third part claim.
What can I do? I always rent a car ALL INCLUSIVE (LDW + SLI + underinsurance-no insurance motorist, etc).
Is there any other insurance policy I can take to cover the SLI for the Harper SUV rental?
I do not know if I go on thinking in my mind that if I just bump a dog or another car bumper, someone can claim thousand of dollars for that.
By the way, also the Harper LDW offer is a joke. You must pay the first u$s 2500 in case you damage their car in any way.

DanTravels

I respect his opinion as a medical professional, if you explained to him that you will be going from sea level to 4200 meters in a matter of 2 hours or less.

As a non-doctor, but trained emergency medical responder, with significant experience specific to the mountain you're going up, I respectfully disagree with him on this point, for reasons I've largely already explained.

Of course, I can't stop you. And of course, I hope neither you nor anyone else in your party has any problems of any kind.

That said, I will continue to recommend that everyone else follow the health and safety guidelines given by the people who actually work on the mountain.