ARCHIVED "CURRENT INTER-ISLAND FARES" thread
Mar 25, 2006, 10:27 pm
#76
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by gemac
The second of these discusses the Air Midwest crash. The investigation came up with 6 causes. 3 were deficiencies at Air Midwest, one was a deficiency at Raytheon, and two were FAA deficiencies. Didn't say Boo about Mesa.
The bottom line is that all airlines maintenance procedures are dictated by the FAA. Safety is pretty much dictated by weather and airport equipment, not by maintenance.
The bottom line is that all airlines maintenance procedures are dictated by the FAA. Safety is pretty much dictated by weather and airport equipment, not by maintenance.
Maintenance is a huge factor in safety!! That's likely the first thing a go team will look into after a crash. Safety encompasses all aspects of an airline and its operations. That includes ramp, dispatch, pilots, of course maintenace... basically everything. Most airlines have a safety committee comprised of employee representatives in all departments with an incident/accident reporting system. Maintenance is a tremendous factor in safety. To think that the FAA will catch every wrong-doing is to be complacent.
Problems with maintenance may come from a contracted maintenance firm, as in the Air Midwest crash. Airlines are trying to find ways to shave costs to remain competitive. Outsourcing maintenance is one way to do this. However, when airlines do outsource, they lose direct control over the quality of the work. That is, they may not necessarily know what is going into the work on their airplanes.
Mar 26, 2006, 5:05 am
#77
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 52
I havent seen anything in the links that suggests that mesa is a problem waiting to happen. Since your still a student, do some research. Look up United and tell me how many violations they have had, or find some statistics around for average violations per 1000 hours flying time or some baseline statistics. Any stats major will tell you thats the best comparison tool.
In my degree field, I was one of the nations foremost experts in incident investigation and QA analysis. I no longer work in that field, burnt out, but for a time I was the only one in Hawaii with that degree, one of 150 in the nation.
Based on information presented here, Ill proudly stick my family on any Mesa runned aircraft with no more fear of falling from the sky than any other carrier in the nation. When a carrier, or any business, gets cited for something.... EVERY FACET of that operation gets a clean bill of health except that one thing.
Let me give you an example. One of my former locations was inspected and found non compliant in Narcotic storage and containment. Fine, HUGE. The audit showed, when you read it, that the only thing they could find in a nationwide spot inspection was one location in Dubuqe, IA that left a single cabinet unlocked. The repurcussion: Nationwide, my company went to a more secure locking and monitoring system, not just the one location. Plus a self audit was put in place to prevent another recurrance. In the self audit, a team comitte was installed to decide what would be the best way to do this, and they came up with 16 key areas to add to the audit that can be done at the same time to keep us in compliance across the board.
You see, a violation leads to stronger safety. I never see a violation as a bad thing. Its simply someone pointing out to you where your going wrong and gives you an oppurtunity to fix it.
Its the ones that have NOT had incidents that scare me. It means they are hiding their transgressions and havent had anyone to look at their operation from Post-incident mode to correct anything. To put this in air terms, HAWAII AIR AMBULANCE had a recent crash. The owner put all the planes and processes through a thorough independent assessment to put employees minds at ease. They found smaller, noncritical infractions. HAA is a much safer company as a result of the independent assessment, but it took a grave mishap to bring it about. If they never had this accident, and the other one two years ago that took the lives of two very dear friends of mine, they would never have made changes.
incidentally, I wouldnt fly their planes if my life depended on it. Been there, done that, I consider their operation to be subpar no matter what assessments are done or said.
People point to violations and say "SEE SEE!!!!!" but a violation and corrective action program says alot more for the safety of that craft than a clean bill of health. Just cause a particular restaurant was cited for roaches doesnt mean that its competitor next door or across the street doesnt have them. Its one of the big ironies of society.
In my degree field, I was one of the nations foremost experts in incident investigation and QA analysis. I no longer work in that field, burnt out, but for a time I was the only one in Hawaii with that degree, one of 150 in the nation.
Based on information presented here, Ill proudly stick my family on any Mesa runned aircraft with no more fear of falling from the sky than any other carrier in the nation. When a carrier, or any business, gets cited for something.... EVERY FACET of that operation gets a clean bill of health except that one thing.
Let me give you an example. One of my former locations was inspected and found non compliant in Narcotic storage and containment. Fine, HUGE. The audit showed, when you read it, that the only thing they could find in a nationwide spot inspection was one location in Dubuqe, IA that left a single cabinet unlocked. The repurcussion: Nationwide, my company went to a more secure locking and monitoring system, not just the one location. Plus a self audit was put in place to prevent another recurrance. In the self audit, a team comitte was installed to decide what would be the best way to do this, and they came up with 16 key areas to add to the audit that can be done at the same time to keep us in compliance across the board.
You see, a violation leads to stronger safety. I never see a violation as a bad thing. Its simply someone pointing out to you where your going wrong and gives you an oppurtunity to fix it.
Its the ones that have NOT had incidents that scare me. It means they are hiding their transgressions and havent had anyone to look at their operation from Post-incident mode to correct anything. To put this in air terms, HAWAII AIR AMBULANCE had a recent crash. The owner put all the planes and processes through a thorough independent assessment to put employees minds at ease. They found smaller, noncritical infractions. HAA is a much safer company as a result of the independent assessment, but it took a grave mishap to bring it about. If they never had this accident, and the other one two years ago that took the lives of two very dear friends of mine, they would never have made changes.
incidentally, I wouldnt fly their planes if my life depended on it. Been there, done that, I consider their operation to be subpar no matter what assessments are done or said.
People point to violations and say "SEE SEE!!!!!" but a violation and corrective action program says alot more for the safety of that craft than a clean bill of health. Just cause a particular restaurant was cited for roaches doesnt mean that its competitor next door or across the street doesnt have them. Its one of the big ironies of society.
Originally Posted by hal717200
As asu-ua772 said, Air Midwest was owned and operated by Mesa at the time, so yes, they were indeed behind that crash.
Maintenance is a huge factor in safety!! That's likely the first thing a go team will look into after a crash. Safety encompasses all aspects of an airline and its operations. That includes ramp, dispatch, pilots, of course maintenace... basically everything. Most airlines have a safety committee comprised of employee representatives in all departments with an incident/accident reporting system. Maintenance is a tremendous factor in safety. To think that the FAA will catch every wrong-doing is to be complacent.
Problems with maintenance may come from a contracted maintenance firm, as in the Air Midwest crash. Airlines are trying to find ways to shave costs to remain competitive. Outsourcing maintenance is one way to do this. However, when airlines do outsource, they lose direct control over the quality of the work. That is, they may not necessarily know what is going into the work on their airplanes.
Maintenance is a huge factor in safety!! That's likely the first thing a go team will look into after a crash. Safety encompasses all aspects of an airline and its operations. That includes ramp, dispatch, pilots, of course maintenace... basically everything. Most airlines have a safety committee comprised of employee representatives in all departments with an incident/accident reporting system. Maintenance is a tremendous factor in safety. To think that the FAA will catch every wrong-doing is to be complacent.
Problems with maintenance may come from a contracted maintenance firm, as in the Air Midwest crash. Airlines are trying to find ways to shave costs to remain competitive. Outsourcing maintenance is one way to do this. However, when airlines do outsource, they lose direct control over the quality of the work. That is, they may not necessarily know what is going into the work on their airplanes.
Mar 26, 2006, 10:53 am
#78
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by JW74
I havent seen anything in the links that suggests that mesa is a problem waiting to happen. Since your still a student, do some research. Look up United and tell me how many violations they have had, or find some statistics around for average violations per 1000 hours flying time or some baseline statistics. Any stats major will tell you thats the best comparison tool
Someone said here that it would take an idiot to not see all the advantages of keeping the fares low. The point here is that when we get low fares, there are often costs that have to be trimmed in other areas of the operation that will not necessarily be an advantage.
"Mesa being a problem waiting to happen" is an interpretation that you have made.
Mar 26, 2006, 11:30 am
#79
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Mar 26, 2006, 12:36 pm
#80
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Programs: UAL1K 2MM UGS, Hilton Gold
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by gemac
. . .
Contrast that to AQ and HA, who rig interisland fares at obscene levels that invite competition. When that competition inevitably appears, they slice their prices in half or more and use political connections and the courts to try to stifle the competitor. If the competitor fails, boom, the prices skyrocket immediately. And all this to stave off the reforms that they need to make to provide a good product at a reasonable price. Without the ability to gouge the interisland customers to support their money-losing mainland businesses, AQ and HA will likely continue to hemorrage money for the forseeable future. I will be surprised if one or both don't make a return trip to the bankruptcy courts in the next three years, given the (at least temporary) loss of the interisland cash cow.
Which business model sounds better to you?
I gotta give them this, though. They must have the world's best PR departments, if they can get even a few people to think that they are "on your side". If the rest of the management was as good at their jobs as the PR department seems to be, these companies would be competitive, successful, and profitable.
Contrast that to AQ and HA, who rig interisland fares at obscene levels that invite competition. When that competition inevitably appears, they slice their prices in half or more and use political connections and the courts to try to stifle the competitor. If the competitor fails, boom, the prices skyrocket immediately. And all this to stave off the reforms that they need to make to provide a good product at a reasonable price. Without the ability to gouge the interisland customers to support their money-losing mainland businesses, AQ and HA will likely continue to hemorrage money for the forseeable future. I will be surprised if one or both don't make a return trip to the bankruptcy courts in the next three years, given the (at least temporary) loss of the interisland cash cow.
Which business model sounds better to you?
I gotta give them this, though. They must have the world's best PR departments, if they can get even a few people to think that they are "on your side". If the rest of the management was as good at their jobs as the PR department seems to be, these companies would be competitive, successful, and profitable.
I wish I had said it as well.
AQ and HA have no inherent right to survive, nor do their employees have any inherent right to jobs.
What they do have a right to is a level and competitive playing field - and, through their political connections, they have that and much, much more.
I'm not anti AQ or HA, but the pricing pattern you describe, has been repeated a half dozen times. Each cycle with the same result, record high fares after competition withdrew.
Aloha,
Lihue1k
Mar 26, 2006, 12:40 pm
#81
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[QUOTE=hal717200]
There are a lot of costs that an airline incurs that if trimmed will not:
A. Subject the airline to large fines.
B. Open the possibility of massive lawsuit judgements against the airline.
C. Increase the possibility of devastating, withering adverse publicity that could drive the airline out of business.
It seems more likely that cost cutting would be in those other areas.
I guess that those who believe that low fares mean unsafe operations won't be flying interisland on any carrier come June 9, and probably won't be flying HA and AQ to the mainland either, since they would be likely to skimp on maintenance across the board. Looks like everybody will have low interisland fares then. I'll still be flying.
I don't know, it might have been me who made the comment about those who don't see the advantages of keeping fares low. I don't think I used the word "idiot", but if I did, I should apologize. The problem with trying to keep prices artificially high is that this invites competition in, and the problem with that is that some competitors are really good, and once they come in, they eat your lunch. It is a lot easier and less expensive to keep competition out by pricing low than it is to get rid of them once they are there competing.
Originally Posted by JW74
I havent seen anything in the links that suggests that mesa is a problem waiting to happen. Since your still a student, do some research. Look up United and tell me how many violations they have had, or find some statistics around for average violations per 1000 hours flying time or some baseline statistics. Any stats major will tell you thats the best comparison tool.QUOTE]
Someone said here that it would take an idiot to not see all the advantages of keeping the fares low. The point here is that when we get low fares, there are often costs that have to be trimmed in other areas of the operation that will not necessarily be an advantage.
"Mesa being a problem waiting to happen" is an interpretation that you have made.
Someone said here that it would take an idiot to not see all the advantages of keeping the fares low. The point here is that when we get low fares, there are often costs that have to be trimmed in other areas of the operation that will not necessarily be an advantage.
"Mesa being a problem waiting to happen" is an interpretation that you have made.
A. Subject the airline to large fines.
B. Open the possibility of massive lawsuit judgements against the airline.
C. Increase the possibility of devastating, withering adverse publicity that could drive the airline out of business.
It seems more likely that cost cutting would be in those other areas.
I guess that those who believe that low fares mean unsafe operations won't be flying interisland on any carrier come June 9, and probably won't be flying HA and AQ to the mainland either, since they would be likely to skimp on maintenance across the board. Looks like everybody will have low interisland fares then. I'll still be flying.
I don't know, it might have been me who made the comment about those who don't see the advantages of keeping fares low. I don't think I used the word "idiot", but if I did, I should apologize. The problem with trying to keep prices artificially high is that this invites competition in, and the problem with that is that some competitors are really good, and once they come in, they eat your lunch. It is a lot easier and less expensive to keep competition out by pricing low than it is to get rid of them once they are there competing.
Last edited by gemac; Mar 26, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Mar 27, 2006, 2:29 am
#82
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by hal717200
"Mesa being a problem waiting to happen" is an interpretation that you have made.
Apr 1, 2006, 12:33 pm
#83
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by hal717200
Oh come on! That's just silly. Just because Aloha's 737-200 aircraft are aging doesn't mean their maintenance is bad. The Boeing 737-200 Adv is a solid workhorse aircraft. I can't wait to see one painted in the 1960's Funbird livery. 
FYI, Mesa's current Director of Maintenance happens to be ex-Aloha Airlines (1980's). http://www.mesa-air.com/bios/oarriaga.asp?nav1=3&nav2=7
FYI, Mesa's current Director of Maintenance happens to be ex-Aloha Airlines (1980's). http://www.mesa-air.com/bios/oarriaga.asp?nav1=3&nav2=7
Yeah, better than having a fire aboard the aircraft like those Bombardier types used by Mesa (fires related to fuel system) Posted this info earlier.
Apr 11, 2006, 11:25 am
#84
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 168
Hawaiian Airlines Extends $39 Interisland Fare Sale to April 14
Hawaiian Airlines Extends $39 Interisland Fare Sale to April 14
Hawaiian Airlines today announced an extension of its interisland fare sale to Friday, April 14. Special low fares starting at $39 are being offered for all interisland flights between Honolulu and Lihue, Kahului, Hilo and Kona, subject to seat availability, for travel from June 9 through September 30, 2006.
http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...124&highlight=
I wonder how long the airlines will keep extending the sale?
Hawaiian Airlines today announced an extension of its interisland fare sale to Friday, April 14. Special low fares starting at $39 are being offered for all interisland flights between Honolulu and Lihue, Kahului, Hilo and Kona, subject to seat availability, for travel from June 9 through September 30, 2006.
http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...124&highlight=
I wonder how long the airlines will keep extending the sale?
Apr 15, 2006, 12:37 am
#85
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We could certainly use some competition here in the Mariana Islands. CO Connection has just "generously" lowered its $158 SPN-GUM (120-mile) RT fares to $99 on certain red-eye flights. Even that has been a long time coming.
Apr 15, 2006, 1:02 am
#86
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Suburbia :rolleyes:
Programs: UA, HA, CO
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by WinginIt
I wonder how long the airlines will keep extending the sale?
From what I've seen from punching in some arbitrary date, there seems to be a few takers already for go!'s service:
Code:
OGG Kahului HI US [PHOG] HNL Honolulu Int'l HI US [PHNL] FRI 09 Jun 2006 Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Availability --------- ------ ---- --------- ---- --------- ---- -- YV/Mesa Fo1004 OGG 12:30 HNL 13:02 CRJ 0 Y7 B7 Q7 L7 H7 M7 V3 YV/Mesa Fo1003 OGG 10:30 HNL 11:02 CRJ 0 Y7 B7 Q7 L7 H7 M7 V5 YV/Mesa Fo1002 OGG 08:30 HNL 09:02 CRJ 0 Y7 B7 Q7 L7 H7 M1 V1 YV/Mesa Fo1001 OGG 06:25 HNL 06:57 CRJ 0 Y7 B7 Q7 L7 H7 M7 V5
May 8, 2006, 6:10 pm
#87
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Hawaiian Airlines $39 interisland fare - purchase deadline now May 31!
Yesterday, I bought some tickets on-line, for return flights for 3 between Oaha and Maui, at this fare. Upto yesterday, the deadline was May 7 (ie yesterday). Now, it has been extended to May 31! I presume that the other airlines flying in Hawaii have matched in terms of the duration of the promotion.
May 8, 2006, 6:51 pm
#88
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by FlyerGoldII
Yesterday, I bought some tickets on-line, for return flights for 3 between Oaha and Maui, at this fare. Upto yesterday, the deadline was May 7 (ie yesterday). Now, it has been extended to May 31! I presume that the other airlines flying in Hawaii have matched in terms of the duration of the promotion.
Aloha
May 16, 2007, 11:26 pm
#89
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lahaina, Hawai'i
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HA $25 O/W I/I Fare Sale [Travel by Jun 6/Still Available]
IF...... you want to travel i/i in the next 14 days........(thru June 6th)
THEN..... HA is selling tickets for $25 each way; click here: http://www.hawaiianair.com/Specialof...reSpecial.aspx
It's a quick sale, with a short window, but hopefully some FTers can take advantage of it.
Aloha!
THEN..... HA is selling tickets for $25 each way; click here: http://www.hawaiianair.com/Specialof...reSpecial.aspx
It's a quick sale, with a short window, but hopefully some FTers can take advantage of it.
Aloha!
Last edited by kaukau; May 24, 2007 at 1:07 pm
May 18, 2007, 12:25 am
#90
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Aloha kaukau! Ya know, someone will take this fare as reason for another HNL Do! 
That's a great deal for anyone who might want to wriggle out of an AQ flight on the patched-up jets I've seen today. The flight will likely be on time, unlike our 90min delay today, which was pretty bad for Mrs B who had a fever.
Party at my place, Hilton Kauai Beach, LIH, May 25!
(Maybe useful to get to the Polynesian Festival, May 25, or the Luau - can't wait for that).
That's a great deal for anyone who might want to wriggle out of an AQ flight on the patched-up jets I've seen today. The flight will likely be on time, unlike our 90min delay today, which was pretty bad for Mrs B who had a fever.
Party at my place, Hilton Kauai Beach, LIH, May 25!
(Maybe useful to get to the Polynesian Festival, May 25, or the Luau - can't wait for that)
.
