it's not allowed to walk around some parts of Red Square while goverment movement or something is going on or going to happened and you might just got yourself in the wrong moment in the wrong place ) that's it ) it's just I personally hasn't been to Red Square for more then a two years (walking on it I mean) even my apartment is near by )
and sow old are you by the way? )
This is absolutely ridiculous. I walked across a street - with a traffic light
- right next to the Moscova (not sure of spelling) Hotel -following a policeman - at about 9 o'clock at night - while absolutely nothing was going on, and I was still harassed within an inch of my life with guns and rifles pointed at my head with people shouting at me as loud as they could, obviously looking for the opportunity for a good fight and an to make an example out of me. I wasn't sure that I was going to get out of there with my life. After a while, I thought that my American passport might explain why I did not know that you were supposed to take an underground passage. (How was I or anyone supposed to know?) That only made things worse.
And the guy they battered and broke his bones with night sticks while he wailed and everyone watched, wasn't any more than 20.
I have been around the world (Australia three times, New Zealand once, China Twice, South America twice, Africa three times, Europe probably over 25 times, and I have never seen anything seen even anything close to the brutality, repression, gouging and outright intimidation that I saw in three days in Moscow. And I love historical sights, (Kremlin, Kremlin Walls, St. Basil's, Red Square, etc.) and went to see everything.
When I met other people at the airport on the way out, they were absolutely jaw dropping shocked that we had tried it alone.
I understand that there are reliable tour groups that will handle the details and escort you every step (and I do mean every step) of the way, but anyone at anytime who goes anywhere there by himself is absolutely crazy. You might as well put a target on your back, whatever age you are.
By the way, how can you ever recommend Red Square, which is a major tourist attraction that no tourist would miss, if you yourself haven't been there for more than two years yourself, even though you live close by?
I would not be suprised if the boy we saw brutally beaten was not still in the hospital, or has injuries for the rest of his life. But, hey, what a price to pay for a good time!
Saint82: It sounds like you had a really horrible experience. This is one of the reasons I avoid any sort of run-in with the police when I'm in Moscow. I avoid looking at them, walking near them, etc. just to prevent giving them any reason, however minor or absurd, to harass me. But I have to say that as horrible as their treatment of you was, the situation sounds like it might not have been quite as random as you think. If I'm understanding you correctly, the spot where you crossed the road is directly in front of the State Duma - the Russian parliament. If you were running across the street to the north of the Hotel Moskva, you'd have been running straight at the Duma. It would be as if you started running right at the White House or some other guarded monument in the U.S.
Russia has seen quite a few terrorist attacks, many of them in Moscow, including a suicide bomber a couple of years back half a block from the spot you're referencing, a bomb in the shopping mall underneath the open square to the west of the Moskva (amazingly, no one was killed) and another bomb just up the street in front of City Hall that killed one of the best local bomb removal experts. The Duma is therefore quite heavily guarded and from the perspective of the police, I could imagine them being VERY concerned about seeing someone apparently running directly at the building. The Kremlin is similarly protected. These are crucial government sites and serious targets for a whole host of terrorists and yet they are right in the center of a bustling city.
Again, I don't say any of this to excuse the police, but just to offer a possible reason for their aggressive behavior. Obviously, I wasn't there, so I have no idea what actually happened. I'm just going on your description.
As for the underground passageways, I have to confess that they seem pretty obvious. There are no crosswalks. Other people aren't crossing the street. The passageways are clearly marked with visual signs showing pedestrians. And you're talking about an 8-lane road at this particular spot. I admit that I have run across the Garden Ring road a couple of times late at night when the traffic is light, which is not only illegal but pretty dangerous. But no police were around to see me!
As I've said in my previous posts, Russia is very much a mixed bag. It is indeed a very difficult place for the average tourist and not at all set up to be helpful to individual travelers in any way. But if you understand that and respond accordingly (by hiring a guide, or relying on friends) you can still have an amazing time in one of the world's most vibrant cities.
Some of my fondest travel memories take me back to the streets of Moscow and I wouldn't trade those for anything. And yet, I had a close gay friend there murdered by a man he picked up in the Kitai Gorod cruising park (his mother asked the police not to investigate because she was so ashamed - a request they eagerly obliged). I lived there when four apartment blocks were blown up, whether by Chechen terrorists or the government remains a matter of debate in Russia (and as a foreigner, my apartment was subject to a search by the police during the crisis). A journalist acquaintance of mine was assassinated. Last year, a friend visiting from the U.S. was mugged at gunpoint. Colleagues and friends were beaten by protesters and the police when they attempted the first-ever Moscow gay pride march. A good friend from Cameroon was regularly harassed and ridiculed while walking through the city simply because he was black. I mention all of this just by way of saying that I know personally of the challenges of living in and visiting Russia, but I keep going back. Despite it all, it's just that fascinating of a place that it feels worth it.
Saint82: It sounds like you had a really horrible experience. This is one of the reasons I avoid any sort of run-in with the police when I'm in Moscow. I avoid looking at them, walking near them, etc. just to prevent giving them any reason, however minor or absurd, to harass me. But I have to say that as horrible as their treatment of you was, the situation sounds like it might not have been quite as random as you think. If I'm understanding you correctly, the spot where you crossed the road is directly in front of the State Duma - the Russian parliament. If you were running across the street to the north of the Hotel Moskva, you'd have been running straight at the Duma. It would be as if you started running right at the White House or some other guarded monument in the U.S.
Russia has seen quite a few terrorist attacks, many of them in Moscow, including a suicide bomber a couple of years back half a block from the spot you're referencing, a bomb in the shopping mall underneath the open square to the west of the Moskva (amazingly, no one was killed) and another bomb just up the street in front of City Hall that killed one of the best local bomb removal experts. The Duma is therefore quite heavily guarded and from the perspective of the police, I could imagine them being VERY concerned about seeing someone apparently running directly at the building. The Kremlin is similarly protected. These are crucial government sites and serious targets for a whole host of terrorists and yet they are right in the center of a bustling city.
Again, I don't say any of this to excuse the police, but just to offer a possible reason for their aggressive behavior. Obviously, I wasn't there, so I have no idea what actually happened. I'm just going on your description.
As for the underground passageways, I have to confess that they seem pretty obvious. There are no crosswalks. Other people aren't crossing the street. The passageways are clearly marked with visual signs showing pedestrians. And you're talking about an 8-lane road at this particular spot. I admit that I have run across the Garden Ring road a couple of times late at night when the traffic is light, which is not only illegal but pretty dangerous. But no police were around to see me!
As I've said in my previous posts, Russia is very much a mixed bag. It is indeed a very difficult place for the average tourist and not at all set up to be helpful to individual travelers in any way. But if you understand that and respond accordingly (by hiring a guide, or relying on friends) you can still have an amazing time in one of the world's most vibrant cities.
Some of my fondest travel memories take me back to the streets of Moscow and I wouldn't trade those for anything. And yet, I had a close gay friend there murdered by a man he picked up in the Kitai Gorod cruising park (his mother asked the police not to investigate because she was so ashamed - a request they eagerly obliged). I lived there when four apartment blocks were blown up, whether by Chechen terrorists or the government remains a matter of debate in Russia (and as a foreigner, my apartment was subject to a search by the police during the crisis). A journalist acquaintance of mine was assassinated. Last year, a friend visiting from the U.S. was mugged at gunpoint. Colleagues and friends were beaten by protesters and the police when they attempted the first-ever Moscow gay pride march. A good friend from Cameroon was regularly harassed and ridiculed while walking through the city simply because he was black. I mention all of this just by way of saying that I know personally of the challenges of living in and visiting Russia, but I keep going back. Despite it all, it's just that fascinating of a place that it feels worth it.
I was following a policeman WALKING across the street at an intersection with traffic signals more than about two blocks away from the DUMA. I'm sorry, you are making far too many excuses. All my actions were reasonable and likely for any level headed person to do.
You have repression from your police, your mayor and on down the line. Why would a single gay person with his marbles in the right place want to mess with that?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianGuy
eveyrthing depends on how old are you )))))))))))))))) older you get - more troubles you see ))) i have so many young friends travelling to Moscow from all over the world, not spaking enlish and yet somehow find all gay locations and have a great fun ))) think about it ) and just FYI, I'm 30 )
Thats VERY true. I come to Moscow twice a year at least, and never had a problem. Will be in Moscow again over Labor Day weekend, on a sidetrip from Frankfurt. I love Moscow!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint82
This is absolutely ridiculous. I walked across a street - with a traffic light
- right next to the Moscova (not sure of spelling) Hotel -following a policeman - at about 9 o'clock at night - while absolutely nothing was going on, and I was still harassed within an inch of my life with guns and rifles pointed at my head with people shouting at me as loud as they could, obviously looking for the opportunity for a good fight and an to make an example out of me. I wasn't sure that I was going to get out of there with my life. After a while, I thought that my American passport might explain why I did not know that you were supposed to take an underground passage. (How was I or anyone supposed to know?) That only made things worse.
And the guy they battered and broke his bones with night sticks while he wailed and everyone watched, wasn't any more than 20.
I have been around the world (Australia three times, New Zealand once, China Twice, South America twice, Africa three times, Europe probably over 25 times, and I have never seen anything seen even anything close to the brutality, repression, gouging and outright intimidation that I saw in three days in Moscow. And I love historical sights, (Kremlin, Kremlin Walls, St. Basil's, Red Square, etc.) and went to see everything.
When I met other people at the airport on the way out, they were absolutely jaw dropping shocked that we had tried it alone.
I understand that there are reliable tour groups that will handle the details and escort you every step (and I do mean every step) of the way, but anyone at anytime who goes anywhere there by himself is absolutely crazy. You might as well put a target on your back, whatever age you are.
By the way, how can you ever recommend Red Square, which is a major tourist attraction that no tourist would miss, if you yourself haven't been there for more than two years yourself, even though you live close by?
I would not be suprised if the boy we saw brutally beaten was not still in the hospital, or has injuries for the rest of his life. But, hey, what a price to pay for a good time!
Many of my friends (specifically from the US, Italy and Germany) have traveled to Moscow by themseleves on several occasions and had a fabulous time. Fantastic restaurants and bars/clubs, great museums, very clean compared to NY, for instance, never an issue with the police or anyone else. Nothing even close to what you are describing.
I, for one, am quite sceptical of your story. There has to be more to that then just what you described. I know the city pretty well, and its VERY hard to believe anything even close to what you are describing can happen to anyone who was just following a policeman and violating a traffic light. Not buying it.
By the way, Hotel Moskva was demolished several years ago.
The rebuilt Hotel Moskva (Moscow) is due to re-open any moment in the same place and shape as the old one.
I have spent about 6 weeks in Moscow already this year. I am fluent in Russian, and that's the only reason that I do not have problems navigating this city. Signage in foreign languages (or even Roman lettering) is rare and inconsistent, though a growing number of young Russians speak English.
There are two major problems with travel to Russia:
1. Xenophobic and homophobic violence. It is persistent and omnipresent, but the local population does not seem to be disturbed by it. Even when the local sources of media report such violence, the underlying story is that the victim probably caused the violence by her/his behavior or presence. Those who go should exercise a great sense of precaution.
2. Ripping off of foreigners. This is also persistent and omnipresent. If you get in a cab, either insist on using a meter, or insist on paying 150-200 Rubles (within city center), by saying that it was the amount you paid last time. I would not recommend using unlicensed "roaming taxis."
The airport car service rate from Hotel National is over 5,000 Rubles, and that is a rip-off. Both SVO and DME have taxi windows, where you get assigned a taxi at a flat rate (1500-2000 Rubles, depending on destination and time of day). Both airports also have an express train into the city, but I would not recommend using those if you don't speak Russian.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCH
The rebuilt Hotel Moskva (Moscow) is due to re-open any moment in the same place and shape as the old one.
I have spent about 6 weeks in Moscow already this year. I am fluent in Russian, and that's the only reason that I do not have problems navigating this city. Signage in foreign languages (or even Roman lettering) is rare and inconsistent, though a growing number of young Russians speak English.
There are two major problems with travel to Russia:
1. Xenophobic and homophobic violence. It is persistent and omnipresent, but the local population does not seem to be disturbed by it. Even when the local sources of media report such violence, the underlying story is that the victim probably caused the violence by her/his behavior or presence. Those who go should exercise a great sense of precaution.
2. Ripping off of foreigners. This is also persistent and omnipresent. If you get in a cab, either insist on using a meter, or insist on paying 150-200 Rubles (within city center), by saying that it was the amount you paid last time. I would not recommend using unlicensed "roaming taxis."
The airport car service rate from Hotel National is over 5,000 Rubles, and that is a rip-off. Both SVO and DME have taxi windows, where you get assigned a taxi at a flat rate (1500-2000 Rubles, depending on destination and time of day). Both airports also have an express train into the city, but I would not recommend using those if you don't speak Russian.
Safe travels.
Agreed with pretty much everything stated here. I would make the following comments however:
1) Xenophobia and homophobia are alive and pretty strong. As a result, I don't advertise my orientation, but then again, I don't advertise it anywhere in the world, its just not what I do. If you are not walking around with a rainbow flag in your hands you'll be fine. There are other places in the world (and plenty of them) with xenophobia and homophobia issues worse then Moscow. I never had a problem going to gay bars/clubs in Moscow, be mindful of cars you get into, if possible, pre-order the taxis from various taxi services abundant on the Internet in Moscow or over the phone. Its no more dangerous in terms of anti-gay violence then going to Texas. In terms of xenophobia, Westerners of caucasion appearance are normally never a target, the xenophobic outbursts are usually targeting people of Middle Eastern and Asian appearance. Once again, if you are within the Garden Ring (central part of the city), you are pretty much safe no matter what race/nationality you are (and your documents check out).
2) Always agree on a price before you get into a taxi, or order your car from taxi services, completely safe and reliable, also many of them take credit cards (including AMEX).
3) One can take a train from any of the three airports, the cost varies from 150 to 250 rubles (6 to 12 dollars), the trains drop you off downtown, from where you can take a metro or pre-arranged taxi. Much cheaper then taking a taxi from the airport (but I usually do).
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I really don't see the point for all this Moscow bashing....we could see perhaps similar/worse situations in China, Iran, Syria etc etc - Places I would place well behind Moscow in terms of human rights!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedar Jet
I really don't see the point for all this Moscow bashing....we could see perhaps similar/worse situations in China, Iran, Syria etc etc - Places I would place well behind Moscow in terms of human rights!
CJ
Precisely! To add a few: certain regions of the US and some South American countries, along with Balkan countries.
I really don't see the point for all this Moscow bashing....we could see perhaps similar/worse situations in China, Iran, Syria etc etc - Places I would place well behind Moscow in terms of human rights!
CJ
Cedar Jet bring up a good and more general point, which is what qualifies a destination as "beyond the pale" for gay travelers? I recently chose NOT to go to Malaysia, for example, and I was dubious about Singapore. My reasoning on those was that in both cases, the national government is officially hostile to gay people and actually bans gay sex, even though I know that the on-the-ground reality in Singapore is quite different from the "official" stance. Egypt is in the same category. There is no substantive legal discrimination nationally against gays in Russia and the Putin/Medvedev apparatus has, as far as I know, never officially gone on any tirades about gays (I don't doubt that they privately agree with Moscow mayor Luzhkov, but unless I missed it, they haven't made any substantive public statements). So at the national level, there isn't a major issue, as there is in Egypt or Malaysia. And let's not even talk about Saudi Arabia, Oman, Syria, Iran, Jamaica, etc.
So Moscow falls in the same category as Riga or perhaps Warsaw - places where local leaders have pushed strong anti-gay agendas that are not necessarily mirrored by national figures in any substantive way (although in Poland that gets more complicated). I have visited Riga and Warsaw recently, and visit Moscow every year. So what is the standard?
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My 3 days in Moscow
Well the city is definately an amazing place to visit. The historic sights are great.
The city and and its citizens seem to be on a mild acid trip with regard to the new found wealth-guys and gals strutting around in shinny evening prada outfits for a midday stroll in the park.
Prestige cars everywhere and its almost a battle of ''to see and be seen''.
The is definately an air of paranoia everywhere...my hotel had security and cameras everywhere and you are starred at carefully on entering and exiting. Security around parks and tourist areas are also well evident. Smiles are very hard to come by in Moscow-unless you say something nice about the city then its all grins!
Public safety is questionable - very long extention cords in open squres that power ice cream bins(dont bother buying from these vendors the ice cream is always half melted!) Kids diving into very shallow ponds in the central public park with police watching and laughing. Cigarette smoking is downright unbearable in most of the city and its venues, if you are non smoker its definately 3rd world smoking habits by young and old alike. Some of the clubs have a strict ""face control"" patrol at the door.
Worst of all English usage is minimal. You will have a very hard time if you cant speak or understand Russian-the city is VERY tourist unfreindly!!
I was always treated very well they seemed to be fascintated I had come all the way from Australia and I was always asked to compare Russia to Australia-no doubt I was very diplomatic. People here have no problem selling Russia and their new found wealth.
I dont think Id ever visit here again although I'm glad I made the effort..the 3 days were VERY difficult without a working knowledge of Russian. Being charged double for nearly everything then when challenging prices they will ask you ""well u give me price" arghh
I had no probs entering or exiting the country and sitting here at the airport lounge I can honestly say I feel mentally and physically exhausted.
If this countys economy ever crashes its gong to be a very hard fall for its citizens as they are certainly enjoying the high life.
Sorry its a bit all over the place My Alitalia flight to Rome is delayed 3 hrs and Im trying to kill time.
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Good thing I didn't read this thread earlier. We just got back from a long layover (21 hours) in Moscow and didn't run into any problems at all. While we weren't planning on leaving the airport, we decided to visit the embassy in Bangkok to get a visa. A very quick (about 30 minutes) but expensive ($200) visit. Getting to Moscow, we never felt unwelcomed in anyway (from a tourist or a gay perspective).
Now, I acknowledge to being there less than a day, but not once did anyone give us a hard time in anyway. Cops were everywhere but very friendly (at least to Americans), cabbies struggled with English but no hassle, and had some hot times. We even had one of the cab drivers proposition us (woof).
I guess it's best to walk around ignorant. I can't wait to go back when I have more time!
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I go to Moscow about 3-4 times a year. The USSR is over.
Russia, just like the rest of the BRIC Countries, is growing at a rate faster than the US / EU. People have jobs [ the unemployment rate is 5%~ ] , the population is very well educated, often but not always speak good english.
People in Russia are not desperate for a buck by having to rob tourists, believe me. There are other more lucrative businesses. The country is booming, and its citizens are currently enjoying "the high life" - as CedarJet said. The Bentley dealership in Moscow has a long, long wait list. And the folks crowding the Park Hyatt Arabat ($600 a night) are mostly Russian.
That being said : there are some remnants of the old USSR. Lots of guards in the metro due to terrorist attacks in the past and archaic practices like foreigner registration.
In the past the security officers would try to shake tourists for a bribe - if you did not register when you arrived. The rule changed from 2 business days to 7. So theoretically, you could be in Russia two weeks without registering.
I think street smarts get you far, anywhere. Frankly, I found Rio/Sao Paolo, Brazil to be a much more "dodgy" place than Moscow.
And as far as the gay scene goes, the Russians can be hot/horny just like anywhere/everywhere else. Its not as open as lets say Germany / Scandinavia, but they are catching up.
Plenty of gays in Moscow. Some cute too.
The best website for anything gay in Russia (at time of writing is gay.ru) Website in Russian. If you can't read Cyrillic, run it though google chrome translator. Searches are best done through yandex.ru, which is the Russian google.
If you are flying Business Class/First Class :
I thought I would mention, since this has happened twice to me. If you are on a popular flight, travelling during peak time, beware of the being bought off at the airport. Specifically : pax buying the entire F and J cabin at the airport, walk up fare. ( I am not kidding).Therefore, it is in your interest to check in early and board early.
This has happened twice to me personally, on two different carriers (EK and United). On EK there was another flight later in the day, on United, I was asked to take a flight the next day. I was travelling on an discount business class (Z) and was promptly booted by a Russian pax with ca$h. Talk about being on a giddy acid trip with new found wealth. Weren't these people poor once upon a time?
Everyone who was not on "full fare" was bumped off. This included Global Services pax, though on EK, the IO's were accommodated, understandably. Just FYI. Your visa needs to be valid at exit, be sure to pad your visa with a few extra days (if applicable)
More info here. Popular routes are MOW-LHR/ZRH/GVA, and oil destinations. EK DME-DXB, and to world capitals. UA DME-IAD. If you see your flight, F0 J0 C0 D0 Z0, you got bought! LOL.
Last edited by meFIRST; Nov 8, 11 at 7:58 pm..
Reason: Added GLBT additional info + travel info
I spent three days early August with a straight friend in Moscow, we had a great time. Security was never an issue. We stayed at Ritz-Carlton, a 5-minute walk from Red Square. We do not speak Russian but we have done everything on our own, without a guide. It was as simple as in any part of the world. Underground is easy to understand, otherwise we always took hotel cars, except when coming back from Imperia Lounge, a famous Moscow club (we took an unofficial cab, we knew the price was crazy so we negociated but it was still a bit expensive). We saw plenty of gay couples everywhere.
any updates on good places to go? thanks for advice on complete
buy outs of business cabin. I'm
on on elf the popular routes you mentioned in 3 weeks. will play defensive for my return flight.
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My 3 days in Moscow
