bitterproffit

I am sure Anne Frank's family felt perfectly safe in Amsterdam, until they didn't. Enjoy Russia.

sobe_dude

US is a big country, and Europe is a whole continent, so you cannot generalize.
While it is true that nightlife in certain European cities like Barcelona, Paris or Berlin is better than in most american cities, try going to Italy or certain eastern European countries, and you will not be complaining about US anymore. I'd rather be in Miami than anywhere in Italy if I'm looking for gay nightlife. I've been to Italy several times, there is a lot to visit in that country, but it sucks to be gay over there, one reason I'm taking a break from visiting Italy for a while.

hsmall

Two points:

First, how on earth can you say that religion and politics are immutable conditions? People change them all the time and it is perfectly legitimate to challenge people on their personal and mutable beliefs that, for example, communism/monopoly capitalism is a great socio-political system or that some first century Palestinian agitator rose from the dead. It is not at all the same as being gay, or black, for example. Indeed one of the great things about the recent history of one of the countries you come from is that they have finally altered their attitudes and woken up to the evils of the Catholic church.

I in part agree with you on the hypocrisy of gay people on holiday destinations. I admit to one holiday trip to Dubai which won't be repeated. And I belong to an international business that has offices in many (from a gay point of view) unsavoury places. I put my clients' interests first for business travel.

hsmall

The British Home Office, when fighting off and losing a Supreme Court challenge to their policy on gay asylum seekers on the grounds that any gay person could return to the closet when they were deported, responded to a question about Anne Frank by saying that if she had got to the UK she would be legitimately refused asylum because she could go back to Amsterdam and hide.......

Adam1222

Well this thread is old so no one was talking about the original article (from more than 2 years ago!) until you brought the thread back from the dead because you had failed to gain traction in the Russia thread.

This is the second time you've brought up hypocrisy in response to me on this topic. That some gay people may be hypocritical with their travel choices is a non sequitur. People who know me on this forum or on my blog know I have spoken out about the human rights practices in the UAE and LGBT people visiting both there and the Maldives. No one's asked, but I wouldn't travel to Jamaica either. I go out of my way not to fly Etihad, Emirates, or Qatar. So you're not getting any traction out of that hypocrisy charge with me, bub.

As for your "sexuality shouldn't determine a person", I agree. I choose to travel to places where I can be comfortable being my whole self. But I think you're using that as part of a trope that basically says "just keep your gayness to yourself." I find that horribly offensive and outdated. I don't know what generation you are, but my generation doesn't say discrimination is okay if you're "acting gay" or didn't "tone it down."

The excuse "You have to respect their culture" Is also a non sequitur. Race discrimination was part (or in ways, is part) of American culture. Apartheid was part of South African culture. FGM is part of the culture in parts of Africa. There's no moral requirement that I accept that, or that I travel to places and embrace that culture uncritically.

What do I want you to say about Chechnya? Probably not "Russia isn't really bad, I had a fun dinner party once."

I agree little will be done to change the situation in Russia if people say "that's just the culture" or "it's not so bad, come visit anyway." Boycotts do put pressure on political regimes when they are widespread. Whether this would do so is another question, but you're repeated attack on people who have strong opinions on why they don't want to travel to Russia is unmerited.

TominLazybrook

Russia is full on dangerous. At this point, officials of the Russian Federation appear to be actively engaged in Nazi style genocide.

If one is in Russia...leave...quickly. Chechnya is a trial run. I won't even change planes there now.

rrgg

For what it's worth, Russia's a large country and is not 93% Muslim like Chechnya. You won't hear that on the news though. I'm sure it's unrelated of course.

bitterproffit

That's like saying 'They are only rounding up gays in Alabama, with the tacit approval of the White House, so if you are in New York, you shouldn't worry'

The pro-Kremlin Kadyrov enjoys the support of Putin. He wouldn't do it without the approval of Putin. Kadyrov stated that the claims are false because gay people do not even exist in Chechnya, and if they did, their relatives would have already sent them away somewhere.

carlosdca

Do you mean hide that you are gay?

Sexuality is part of everybody's life.
Like when at the water fountain at work you ask, how was your weekend? And they say "great, I went to the zoo with my wife and the kids".
As a gay person you say "I went to visit grandma"? (instead of "I went to the bars with my husband"?)

rrgg

I didn't say any such thing.

TominLazybrook

Vladimir Putin is fully in control of Chechnya. This is Putin, Putin, and Putin. Quite frankly, I'd argue it has as much to do with the Russian Orthodox Church as it does with Islam.

These are not actions by a terrorist group, but rather by the state operating in its official capacity.

Sure, there's a prominent's block in Moscow and St Petersburg where a few LGBT spaces are allowed to sort of exist....but Russia is LOT more like Chechnya than it is like the Prominents Block in Moscow.

bennos

So, uh, Singapore and Russia are in the same category wrt treatment of the lgbt community?

ilcannone

Speaking at least about Moscow, I completely disagree. Even in other parts of the country I feel perfectly safe.


Well, Singapore TECHNICALLY has a law against homosexuality, Russia doesn't...so, go figure with that. And frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if awful things do happen to LGBT people out in Singapore.

I do in Russia what I do ANYWHERE else in the world - not bother bringing anything up regarding my own preferences.

Adam1222

I'm sorry you feel the need to hide your "preferences." I prefer not to hide who I am. It must be hard and exhausting going through life worrying about butching it up and making sure you dont do anything that would make people realize you're gay. A good reminder that some people still carry that fear and self loathing that comes with the closet.

There are plenty of places where one does not have to go through life trying to pass as straight, but of course there are people into "str8-acting" "masc 4 masc" even in places like New York.

Dieuwer

Good points.