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Nov-Dec 2 weeks - itinerary suggestions

Nov-Dec 2 weeks - itinerary suggestions

Old Apr 16, 2012, 11:32 am
  #16  
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Originally Posted by etch5895
Bamberg is a great city, as others have noted.

Regarding Christmas markets: I'd consider basing myself out of Nürnberg for several days if you really want to enjoy the Christmas markets. There are several great markets within the local transport zone that I think you'd find appealing. Rothenberg ob der Tauber is one (also a very famous walled city), Bayreuth and Bamberg will both have markets up, albeit smaller ones and if memory serves there is also a market in Ansbach, which is about 1/2 hour outside of Nürnberg. For transportation, all of these town are within the Nürnberg greater transport area (VGN) and can be accessed via the TagesTicket Plus. This is a 16.20 euro ticket that is good for 2 adults and up to 4 kids anywhere in the VGN zone. It is good until the next morning, and on the weekend, it is good for both Saturday and Sunday. It covers all S-bahn, bus, streetcar and underground lines (and DB regional trains) within the region. Fair warning: Nürnberg's market can be absolutely packed on the weekends.

From Nürnberg, I'd consider a day trip or overnight out to Prague, which has a very large Christmas market with a slightly different flair. You can get a DB bus direct from Nürnberg into Prague, tickets should be about 29 euro per person, each way (4 hour trip, give or take) on a comfortable bus.

Another option is to take the train or fly into Dresden and enjoy not only their very famous and large Christmas market, but the beautiful city as well.

Munich's market is OK but nothing to write home about. You may want to go further south into Austria and see what there is to see there instead.
We got to Nurnberg and Rotenburg last December, but everything was very fast. We'd really like to get to Salzburg for a couple days (small market, but we only had an afternoon, no time for further exploration). I mentioned Munich because I visited for a long weekend the year before (before the Christmas market). Last year, my companion didn't really see Munich because it was all about the markets.

Prague would be excellent (family history in Prague, I've been, companion hasn't).

I should add...I think this might become something of an annual pilgrimage. It's a time of year when it's easy to get vacation time at work, companion really likes Christmas (her birthday is Christmas Day), so any ideas that don't work for this year will get picked up next year (we only have two weeks, Berlin is definitely a must this time, we're guessing 4-5 days).

So it is starting to look like we might do well with a three-'center' itinerary - Berlin for a few days, Nurnberg (looks like it will be a great location to make day-trips from, as well as (?) a trip to Salzburg)? and Dresden?

Is this too ambitious? If night trains are an option, is there a 'best' point in the trip to take one? (ie, scenery isn't stunning, we can combine travel/sleep time). Suggestions for an overall progression? I think we'll probably be arriving on the 25th or 26th. I will have to check opening dates, but depending where we arrive, some local 'pre-market' sightseeing is fine.

I'm guessing we'll fly into FRA. Possibly not ideal, but we avoid east coast/midwest connections, fly ST (DL), probably connect in ATL. I think there are partner options from the west coast (KLM), but on DL we can get E+ (free) and it seems to be a dodgy proposition on KLM.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 1:56 pm
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You could fly into NUE if you wanted to. For SkyTeam, both Air France and KLM fly into Nürnberg on regional jets. You'd connect in either CDG (yuck) or Amsterdam, and catch the short flight into NUE on either an AF Embraer 170 or a KLM Fokker 70 / Embraer 170. NUE airport also has a subway train station that would have you in the city center in about 15 minutes. Food for thought.

Why Berlin, if you don't mind my asking? Some may disagree, but Berlin has always seemed somewhat soulless to me.

With your desires, I'd do Nürnberg, Munich and Dresden for 3-4 days each. From Munich, you could get down to Salzburg easily (and cheap if you use the DB Bayern ticket). I stated that Munich's Christmas market isn't all that, but it is still a market and Munich is always a fun town. I spent one night in Dresden last year and wished I'd spent more time. The Christmas market(s) go on forever, and it really is a pretty city. You could also hit Prague from Dresden, and I believe there is a direct rail connection from the Dresden train station.

As for the night trains, I've only done one from Berlin to Zurich on the CityNightLine train about 7 years ago. Very expensive and not much sleep quality. I'd look into low cost flights instead, or maybe a Eurail pass and use the ICE trains.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 5:41 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by etch5895
You could fly into NUE if you wanted to. For SkyTeam, both Air France and KLM fly into Nürnberg on regional jets. You'd connect in either CDG (yuck) or Amsterdam, and catch the short flight into NUE on either an AF Embraer 170 or a KLM Fokker 70 / Embraer 170. NUE airport also has a subway train station that would have you in the city center in about 15 minutes. Food for thought.
OK, I may have to look into it more. We could connect through AMS, but it would have to be on DL metal - we get E+ seats free on DL. I have read about too many hassles with getting an E+ seat assignment on KLM - problems with getting charged, losing the seat assignment, etc - not willing to fly KLM until this issue gets sorted out. We also avoid any US connection through the northeast or midwest late in the year.

Originally Posted by etch5895
Why Berlin, if you don't mind my asking? Some may disagree, but Berlin has always seemed somewhat soulless to me.
Berlin: mostly because the Christmas markets (number and variety) are supposed to be amazing, but also because of family history.

Now, from other posts, I think we're definitely going to have to add Bamberg to our itinerary.

Any thoughts on Cologne?

Originally Posted by etch5895
I'm not categorically ruling out low-cost flights, but I see several possible disadvantages. $ to from city centers - often not included in 'city pass', can definitely add up. Strict carry-on rules - we do NOT want to risk any checked bag delays/issues, no matter how unlikely. Door-to-door time - we were told by locals on our last trip that it's often just as fast to take a train as it is to take a train to the airport, time for security/checkin early, short flight, train back to city center at destination.

I did realize after reading your reply that although I can sleep fine on the train, (and doing so would shift the cost of a night's lodging), we'd almost certainly arrive somewhere hours too early to check in. Don't fancy that.


As for the night trains, I've only done one from Berlin to Zurich on the CityNightLine train about 7 years ago. Very expensive and not much sleep quality. I'd look into low cost flights instead, or maybe a Eurail pass and use the ICE trains.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 11:17 pm
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Originally Posted by chollie
Any thoughts on Cologne?
Cologne is a fantastic city and the view of the cathedral coming out of the train station will literally take your breath away and forge a memory. I don't know what their Christmas market scene is like, but the city itself is one of my favorites.

By low cost flights I'm not referring to carriers such as Ryanair or Easyjet that fly into obscure airports. Lufthansa, Germanwings and Air Berlin all do a good job of German internal flights to the main airports. Düsseldorf, Cologne, Hamburg, Nürnberg, Munich, Dresden, Leipzig, Stuttgart, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hannover, Bremen airports all have train or streetcar stations directly at the airports and all are part of their local transportation zones. (I'm not sure about Salzburg airport, and Prague has a bus from the airport to one of the train stations). Something you may want to look into, although if you had a Eurail pass it might be a moot point. For short distances, the train might make more sense, but the train from Munich to Berlin or Hamburg is going to take in the neighborhood of 5-6 hours or more, even on the ICE trains. That would be an hour flight.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 1:29 am
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Originally Posted by etch5895
Another option is to take the train or fly into Dresden and enjoy not only their very famous and large Christmas market, but the beautiful city as well.
I would second that in the sense, that Dresden has much more to offer than just a nice big Christmas market. I would add though, that the big Christmas market on the Altmarkt is very touristy. If you want the real deal, find some smaller one (there are over 30 all over the city). I really liked the local one in Loschwitz near the "Blaues Wunder" bridge.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 3:45 am
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I will assume that you don't want to do everything within this year's 12-14 days trip. Otherwise it doesn't really make much sense.

First some general hints:
  • Frankfurt has Germany's largest airport, so it is easiest to reach as all major carriers will have direct connections to FRA.
  • Munich has Germany's 2nd biggest airports, so your chances of getting there by direct connection are pretty high.
  • With the new airport opening this year, Berlin will be far easier to reach than in the past, especially if you want a direct connection from the United States.
  • Nuremberg has one of the smaller airports in Germany, so you will have a stopover, same goes for Cologne.
Since you don't want to drive and want to see much, I would definitely advise on using trains. This is by far the most time-efficient (and probably money-efficient) thing to do. You might want to look into the various discount options for German rail. A BahnCard 25 (giving you 25% discount on all train tickets for EUR59) would be a sure bet for you.

As for the itinerary and your mention of Cologne:
Yes, Cologne is nice and certainly worth a visit, but if you start from Berlin, there's no easy route to include it except by flying there from Berlin or Munich, but since you want to avoid domestic flights, may I suggest that you include Cologne in one of your next trips and then choose a more western itinerary including Bonn, Koblenz, Bingen, Mainz, Heidelberg and so forth.

The mentioned itinerary of Berlin-Dresden-Leipzig-Bamberg-Nuremberg-Munich-Salzburg has the advantage of relatively short train rides (never more than 2-3 hours), which enables you to see more of the different cities.

However let me add to one of your last post, that there are far better christmas markets than Berlin has to offer. Also depending on where you arrive, it might make sense to add Frankfurt and Mainz to your itinerary as both have very nice christmas markets in their respective oldtown quarters.
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 9:55 am
  #22  
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Originally Posted by SunshineStay
I will assume that you don't want to do everything within this year's 12-14 days trip. Otherwise it doesn't really make much sense.

First some general hints:
  • Frankfurt has Germany's largest airport, so it is easiest to reach as all major carriers will have direct connections to FRA.
  • Munich has Germany's 2nd biggest airports, so your chances of getting there by direct connection are pretty high.
  • With the new airport opening this year, Berlin will be far easier to reach than in the past, especially if you want a direct connection from the United States.
  • Nuremberg has one of the smaller airports in Germany, so you will have a stopover, same goes for Cologne.
Since you don't want to drive and want to see much, I would definitely advise on using trains. This is by far the most time-efficient (and probably money-efficient) thing to do. You might want to look into the various discount options for German rail. A BahnCard 25 (giving you 25% discount on all train tickets for EUR59) would be a sure bet for you.

As for the itinerary and your mention of Cologne:
Yes, Cologne is nice and certainly worth a visit, but if you start from Berlin, there's no easy route to include it except by flying there from Berlin or Munich, but since you want to avoid domestic flights, may I suggest that you include Cologne in one of your next trips and then choose a more western itinerary including Bonn, Koblenz, Bingen, Mainz, Heidelberg and so forth.

The mentioned itinerary of Berlin-Dresden-Leipzig-Bamberg-Nuremberg-Munich-Salzburg has the advantage of relatively short train rides (never more than 2-3 hours), which enables you to see more of the different cities.

However let me add to one of your last post, that there are far better christmas markets than Berlin has to offer. Also depending on where you arrive, it might make sense to add Frankfurt and Mainz to your itinerary as both have very nice christmas markets in their respective oldtown quarters.
Thanks, SunshineStay!

We went on a week-long 'market tour' last December. Started/ended in FRA, included Mainz, Wurzburg, Rotenburg, Nuremberg, Munich, Salzburg, Triberg (? - Black Forest). I told my sister at the time that we were really in 'Bavaria', not Germany (according to some people). This is an easy time of year to get vacation time, fares are usually OK, and my sister is all about Christmas (her birthday). We'll probably be doing something similar every year (at least for a while), so your information on Cologne is good - we'll save it for another trip.

If the dates work out, we may try to be in Frankfurt for the bells - they were magical. Our trip isn't just about the markets, and this time we really did want to include Berlin and Salzburg and we are probably (lot of reasons) likely to fly into FRA. Last year's trip was great, but we knew ahead of time we would be spending some long hours on the road. This year, we'd like to cut that down a bit. It sounds like we're beginning to get a handle on a (?) more eastern itinerary, and that's great. Now I have to spend a bit of time trying to guess in advance which flights we'll likely take. That will enable us to fine-tune the itinerary.

I started out thinking we would want to be 'center-oriented', ie, stay 3-4 places during the two weeks, doing day-trips from each location - didn't want to be traveling and changing rooms every night this time.
I'm not ruling out internal flights, etch5895's information is really helpful in that regard. I was envisioning LCC's (Ryanair) and didn't want to go that route. Looks like we have other options.

It isn't just about the markets. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been to Munich before the market and enjoyed my visit - when we were there last year (one day), it really was all about the market - it's hard to see beyond that. We saw FRA both 'before' and 'during' the market last year and enjoyed both views immensely (and the Christmas bells most of all!).

BTW, thanks for help and suggestions everyone! I'm starting this months ahead of time so we will have plenty of time to research, ask questions, more research, more questions, and final commitments (more questions, I'm sure!) I hope other posters and lurkers will find the information in this thread helpful in their travels.

Last edited by chollie; Apr 17, 2012 at 10:27 am
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 4:15 pm
  #23  
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Please read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair#No-frills
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Old Apr 17, 2012, 9:53 pm
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Originally Posted by ToGo
I get where Ryanair is coming from, and obviously there's a market for what they offer. I'm willing (and fortunately able) to pay a bit more and it's worth it to me.
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Old Apr 18, 2012, 1:21 am
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Originally Posted by chollie
We went on a week-long 'market tour' last December. Started/ended in FRA, included Mainz, Wurzburg, Rotenburg, Nuremberg, Munich, Salzburg, Triberg (? - Black Forest). I told my sister at the time that we were really in 'Bavaria', not Germany (according to some people).
Well, except for Munich everything else isn't really 'Bavaria', even though Wurzburg, Rotenburg and Nuremberg all lie in the state of Bavaria, they are part of Franconia and the locals will be insulted if you call them 'Bavarians'

Originally Posted by chollie
If the dates work out, we may try to be in Frankfurt for the bells - they were magical.
Yes, the "Große Stadtgeläut" is really great, especially on Paulsplatz or directly in front of the cathedral.

Originally Posted by chollie
Our trip isn't just about the markets, and this time we really did want to include Berlin and Salzburg and we are probably (lot of reasons) likely to fly into FRA.
Since you've already done Frankfurt and Mainz last year, you should ignore my suggestions here

It's good to know, that you're not just going for the Christmas markets, because then I would recommend to skip Nuremberg on your easterly route (because you know it already and because that leaves you more time for other places). You should definitely keep Dresden, Leipzig and Bamberg though. Definitely worth visiting (and not just because of Christmas markets).
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Old Apr 19, 2012, 8:47 am
  #26  
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I would suggest sticking to Bavaria and the area around Berlin. Cologne is too far; it's too much to attempt in the time you have.

Berlin has the museum of German history in the former east sector, the checkpoint charlie/wall museum, and lots more. An excursion to Brandenberg is also worthwhile for the history.
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