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Frontier Launches Service from TTN to 3 New Airports

Frontier Launches Service from TTN to 3 New Airports

Old Mar 21, 2014, 6:13 pm
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by davywavy
"Annoys"?

Low frequency is an essential element of the restructure at Frontier (and the success at TTN) and that low frequency plays against connections - they may work in one direction but not necessarily the return. I's very early days at CLE and Frontier does not fly CLE-SFO or LAX or LAS and both PHX and SEA are seasonal. The airline does offer a TTN-CLE-DEN on some days, with a 40 minute layover, but the return is a 5 hour layover.

Frontier is not about frequency - nor road warriors - and to structure the airline for those connections plays exactly against what has turned its fortunes around.

Connection possibilities at CLE may come as - and if - the airline grows there, but the last thing they want is a replay of what happened at MKE.
I meant through flights or direct flights where pax stays on the same aircraft for the entire trip. No connections or change planes involved for pax.

On the comment of MKE, I think CLE may have some advantages over MKE, given that the local market is larger (CLE is the 15th largest CSA, while MKE is the 29th) and CLE is closer to the east coast airports (in more populated areas) that can feed better into CLE in general.

One thing that might get complicated is seating. Let's say near full planes, and if TTN-CLE has only one Stretch seat left, let's say 3A, but CLE-PHX has only 3E, the pax would have to select a different seat for each leg possibly. But the website or agent could be able to accommodate and help the pax out. Atleast from my experiences with Spirit, I haven't had an issue, although Spirit charges the Big Front Seat per leg.

How does Frontier handle such situations out in DEN? Suppose one leg has the Stretch sold out, but there are seats in the back of the plane. Is Classic/Classic Plus not sold for the entire segment? Since refundable fares are tied to Classic Plus which is involves the Stretch seat, are refundable fares also unavailable?

Last edited by rtalk25; Mar 21, 2014 at 6:23 pm
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 6:22 pm
  #92  
 
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Originally Posted by delawareguy
UA Fan: I doubt Frontier will pick either ILG or TTN because ILG has a longer runway that can handle longer/a320 routes. I have a feeling ILG is here to stay for at least the short term.
Yes, even if they get the runway situation at TTN taken care of (which they are doing), it will only reach DEN, ILG could do PHX, LAS, SFO, etc. Though the A319neos coming out 4th Quarter 2015 might change that.
Originally Posted by delawareguy
rtalk25: Again, I do not think a nice hotel near ILG is really necessary. Most airport hotels are pretty seedy. The Quality Inn is a 3 star hotel. There is a 5 star Sheraton a mile down the road that the flight crews stay at.
Not sure where you got the Sheraton as 5 star. Most rate it as a 3.5 to 4 star hotel but very nice none the less gets good tripadvisor ratings. The Sheraton Wilmington South is 3.5 miles from the airport and another group of hotels are located near the Christina mall 4.5 miles away. Both are close enough to stay at for an early morning flight.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 7:06 pm
  #93  
 
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I just took a guess on the sheraton, though i looked it up on tripadvisor, 4.5 stars. Though i have gone to several banquets there, it is very nice. It was very controversial here in Delaware since it took 10 years to build. A couple times i noticed Frontier crews taking the hotel shuttle to the airport.

Also, i was wondering if the a319 neos would reach DEN?
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 8:20 pm
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Originally Posted by delawareguy
I just took a guess on the sheraton, though i looked it up on tripadvisor, 4.5 stars. Though i have gone to several banquets there, it is very nice. It was very controversial here in Delaware since it took 10 years to build. A couple times i noticed Frontier crews taking the hotel shuttle to the airport.
Oh, ok I was thinking of a whole different rating system not review ratings. Bottom line it is a nice hotel from the reviews where the quality inn is sketchy. The crew hotel at TTN (SpringHill Suites Ewing Princeton South) has 4.5 out of 5 ratings too on tripadvisor. So they put them up in decent hotels atleast at ILG/TTN.

Originally Posted by delawareguy
Also, i was wondering if the a319 neos would reach DEN?
Airbus claims a 500 mile improvement in range on the NEO. They used to fly TTN-MSY which is 1123mi and TTN-DEN is 1576mi so it looks like it could. They are currently working on making the A319 able to carry more fuel off of the rwy at TTN so that they can do DEN now. All about obstructions and being able to clear them in case of an engine failure. If certain obsticles are removed from the flight path they would be able to do that, a study is currently underway, they were estimating Winter 2014 before any service could possibly start if this was successful.
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 8:40 pm
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Well, for pax flying into ILG as a sub for flying into PHL, they run a risk. Any flight reaching very late might not have shuttle service or car rentals open. I've been on quite a few F9 flights that have been delayed. Some arriving TTN very late at night. Fortunately I have family to pick me up. Some have been flying from other ends not knowing what to expect at TTN. I'm sure with F9 flying DEN-ILG as a substitute for DEN-PHL there is going to be some from DEN side who expect ILG will have the amenities just there. Maybe F9 deals with it with low yield pax like the pax who would book at a Quality Inn. The amount of flights into ILG is very light right now anyways.

I called that Sheraton up and it lacked 24 hour shuttle service between hotel and airport.

I think one has to spend money to make money and New Castle Co./Delaware's only airport will be limited in growth with lack of investment in it. It should buy up that Quality Inn and tear that crap down and use it for something useful (car rentals, curbside taxi, hotel shuttle area) for the airport possibly.

Last edited by rtalk25; Mar 21, 2014 at 8:50 pm
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Old Mar 21, 2014, 9:05 pm
  #96  
 
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I cant speak for the National/Enterprise counter at TTN or Avis/Budget at ILG. But the Avis/Budget counter at the TTN general avation bldg (which offers a shuttle from the commerical terminal) says they do stay open if they have a customer on a delayed flight. The car rentals have an interest in TTN/ILG becoming popular too, it means more business for them but yeah the Quality Inn does need to get torn down. They do need space primarily for parking if flights were to expand. They have room for taxis and another rental or airline counter.
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Old Mar 22, 2014, 6:06 am
  #97  
 
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ILG does need to be renovated. Lot A and B often fill and Lot C is not a good alternative. I don't know if I would tear down the Quality Inn but there is some room for expansion. There is a small field on the North side of Lot A that could hold roughly 200-300 spaces. They could maybe lease some of the parking from the Quality Inn. Lot C could work if there was better signage and a shuttle service to the terminal. On their website(something TTN lacks), there is a public notice about the DRBA recently conducting a study about Terminal Improvements. If this plan moves forward, it will probably be in Fall 2014 like with TTN.

rtalk25: Shuttle Service is 9am-7pm, If Frontier is delayed till late at night, then they can call Delaware Express. Budget/Avis will stay open later I believe, especially since Frontier is bringing in so many customers for them.
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Old Mar 22, 2014, 10:46 am
  #98  
 
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Originally Posted by delawareguy
UA Fan: I doubt Frontier will pick either ILG or TTN because ILG has a longer runway that can handle longer/a320 routes. I have a feeling ILG is here to stay for at least the short term.
Yes, ILG and TTN can both work for F9, it doesn't have to be either or, it can be both. There are places that F9 is not going to ever draw from to TTN that ILG would be good alternative. Nothing south of Philadelphia on the PA side, No one will not only pass PHL but go thru Downtown Philly as well. The Exton/Downingtown/West Chester Area. Northeast Baltimore Suburbs, DE/MD Peninsula between Newark, DE and Dover. Southwest Jersey between Cherry Hill and DE is an easy sell for ILG.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 6:40 am
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Originally Posted by Jerseyguy
Yes, ILG and TTN can both work for F9, it doesn't have to be either or, it can be both. There are places that F9 is not going to ever draw from to TTN that ILG would be good alternative. Nothing south of Philadelphia on the PA side, No one will not only pass PHL but go thru Downtown Philly as well. The Exton/Downingtown/West Chester Area. Northeast Baltimore Suburbs, DE/MD Peninsula between Newark, DE and Dover. Southwest Jersey between Cherry Hill and DE is an easy sell for ILG.
I think the coverage areas are larger than that. I know people that will go from Malvern to Hamilton Station, NJ to catch the train directly from there to reach NYC rather than board at the nearest SEPTA stop and transfer. So, TTN would be about the same distance as Hamilton Station for them when they come from Malvern. I think for the right flight people will drive that far.

I don't think PHL pax will drive as far as JFK or DCA or IAD for a domestic flight though. Even BWI and EWR are getting to become long hikes (with traffic and toll hikes), especially BWI. It's fine for someone flying into the area to save some money where the pax can rent a car at BWI and not put miles on their own car. Atleast EWR has easy train return, although I dislike when the NJ Transit trains are not double decker and are full from people who boarded in NYC.

The good thing about ILG is Wilmington does have a bus station and train station with good service up and down from the Philly to Baltimore markets. This is unlike Allentown which is more isolated. NJ has Greyhound at Mt.Laurel, where one can take a bus to Wilmington that doesn't go through Philly. This can work for those in So. NJ who fly F9 one-way and return another carrier.

I think Frontier's ILG flights to Florida and DEN have staying power, but I'm not so certain that ILG-MDW is viable if TTN-MDW is shored up as daily year round. Similar with DTW and maybe ATL services from ILG. Also, I've noticed WN dropping BWI-MDW fares relatively recently because of the DCA-MDW introduction, so the novelty of ILG-MDW for the Baltimorean and Delawarean might be less appealing when BWI-MDW fares are low. When first introduced, it was cheap to book a ticket with just a one week notice.

I was thinking that F9 could offer ILG-DFW, maybe instead of MDW and DTW after the summer, but have it 5x weekly Mon-Fri or greater, fares at $89 and up, with a departure between 6am-9am out of ILG, to capture the flexible business traveler from the Philly market, and offer something unique for the TTN/ILG customerbase it has as well. Maybe IAH can be tried again with a 5-6x weekly schedule, fares at $89 and up, with AM departure? I think the old F9 (pre Indigo) tried that route with not enough frequency, possible late departure times (where departure from PHL and connection through WN would reach HOU earlier) and too low fares for the route that it wasn't sustainable.

PHL-DFW is a near monopoly and US/AA charge no less than $200 one-way on most of the flights with the exception for the last flight of the night where it competes with Spirit. As US/AA consolidate, I'm sure the DFW and FLL fares will rise with limited direct competitors.

Last edited by rtalk25; Mar 23, 2014 at 7:22 am
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 8:28 am
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In regards to DFW that I mentioned, I noticed that EWR-DFW on both AA and UA is pretty skyrocket high in fares. PHL-DFW is high but EWR-DFW is very high.

Given that ILG is straight down the NJ Turnpike, there are some decent hotels near ILG (except right by it), would an early AM flight like Mon-Fri, on ILG-DFW work to be able to capture the NJ and Philly based crowd?

Would F9 want to dedicate that much resources like 5x a week on it as well?
Would F9 feasibly be able to do two AM departures from ILG (one to DFW, one to IAH)?

Maybe if DFW is instantiated, then IAH can be resumed (even though there was some bad history with ILG-IAH from F9 last time around).

Another one that I don't get is even EWR-IAH is pretty high on UA even though WN directly competes on EWR-HOU.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 9:29 am
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I like the idea of DFW, I wonder where they are going to get the a320s, they just added a bunch of flights from CLE, all on a320s. Would they use a319s from ILG or do they intend on making full use of that longer runway. IAH worried from the start and 3 times a week was not enough to attract business travelers. After IAH(the one destination besides DEN that TTN didn't have) failed. They seem to want to play it safe with ILG, trying to replicate the TTN model with DTW and ATL. I still think they should try non TTN things like DTW, BOS, LAS,PHX, LAX, SEA, MYR. There are some TTN destinations I like, FLL, UST. If Frontier does not expand more from ILG, then Allegiant should add MYR, FLL, PHX, LAS.
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Old Mar 23, 2014, 10:45 am
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The only issue with BOS and I think for both TTN and ILG, is that JetBlue provides good competition at both the PHL and EWR airports up to BOS.

I agree on MYR, which would be relatively easy given the short distance. However, F9 would have to open a station there, which is not a big deal. I'd like to see F9 open MYR with TTN and ILG, CLE, MDW, and eventually PIT. I think TTN-PIT and/or ILG-PIT also needs to be opened up. I'd think something like TTN-PIT-MKE (thru flight) would be more reliable to fill loads and profitable than TTN-MKE, but that's just my guess.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 9:05 am
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There's an article from Press of AC:
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/c...a4bcf887a.html

The Casino Reinvestment Development Authority would “buy” a certain number of unfilled seats on each flight for a certain period of time.

Maybe F9 could operate a few flights into/out of ACY to complement TTN and ILG and have the fallback of subsidy assistance if it's underperforming. This doesn't appear to be route or carrier specific, so it would offer Frontier flexibility to have 3-6x weekly, which fits Frontier better, instead of dedicated daily service.

I'd think PIT, CLE and UST (Florida entry) would be ideal, with PIT and CLE designed for pax that commute from NJ to these short-haul markets (but long enough of drive), perhaps moving CLE-TTN to CLE-ACY, and adding PIT with this as well.

Since at some point, TTN will be maxed out, it'd make sense to dedicate TTN to the slightly longer stage, destinational and profitable flights including MDW, ATL, DTW and MCO and non destinational, experimental, but over 500 mile distance smaller Midwest markets like STL, MKE and MSP if these prove possible past the summer season.

For ILG, it could open up DFW, IAH which are even longer since the runway is longer, but dedicate up to 5x weekly for both to attract more business pax. This would steal some pax from AA out of PHL. The Avis car rental at ILG does cater to the Frontier inbound and outbound flights, so one can rent a car from ILG (if coming up from DFW or IAH) and get easily to most of the western or eastern side of the PHL market. Most businesses are west of PHL and ILG is within one hour from points like King of Prussia, PA. Plus, the pax will be in the area to swing by the local Christiana area to buy something they need tax free.

Southwest is ending PHL-FLL and PHL-RSW is unknown. It has 4x daily on PHL-MCO and 1x on PHL-TPA in October. I think the 4x daily on PHL-MCO is decent but Southwest is susceptible that if Frontier adds more out of TTN especially and ILG as well, it could see even more of it's pax flee to TTN (and maybe ILG). In the cold winter, pax prefer short walk from car to gate ability without waiting for shuttles.

Last edited by rtalk25; Apr 21, 2014 at 9:19 am
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 12:16 pm
  #104  
 
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Originally Posted by rtalk25
Well, for pax flying into ILG as a sub for flying into PHL, they run a risk. Any flight reaching very late might not have shuttle service or car rentals open. I've been on quite a few F9 flights that have been delayed. Some arriving TTN very late at night. Fortunately I have family to pick me up. Some have been flying from other ends not knowing what to expect at TTN. I'm sure with F9 flying DEN-ILG as a substitute for DEN-PHL there is going to be some from DEN side who expect ILG will have the amenities just there. .
I stumbled across the lease for Enterprise (they also operate as National same counter) @ TTN. The lease requires that they be open 6am to 12am 365 a year and that they stay until commerical operations are over so any delayed flight is required to be covered. ILG might have a similar contract with Avis/Budget.
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Old Apr 21, 2014, 12:20 pm
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Originally Posted by rtalk25
Since at some point, TTN will be maxed out, it'd make sense to dedicate TTN to the slightly longer stage, destinational and profitable flights including MDW, ATL, DTW and MCO and non destinational, experimental, but over 500 mile distance smaller Midwest markets like STL, MKE and MSP if these prove possible past the summer season.
TTN will be at 73 flights/week in June, then dropping to 69 in August (I think they are moving a little flight capacity to CLE). If you have a flight leaving every two hours, starting at 6:30 AM from each gate, you could assume 8 flights/gate/day, or 112/week. So TTN probably has another 40 flights/week before being maxed out. My personal belief is that they should use those 40 to expand service to existing locations, rather than open new routes, except maybe for DEN, so TTN can tie into the whole network. My personal belief is that FLL could go daily, especially with the WN cutbacks in PHL, and MCO could go to 10-11x/week. MDW and ATL may not go to 2x daily each day of the week, but could go to 9-10x/week.

Conversely, if IND, MKE or BNA perform only moderately or weakly, they should be dropped to bolster the stronger routes.

It would also help to get the A320neos in service, since that would add 20% to a flight's capacity.
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