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Old Nov 30, 11, 2:56 am   #61
 
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Originally Posted by volvo99 View Post
No reason why B6 would want to invite organized labor on property by absorbing F9. And why would B6 invest in a hub to begin with? Hubs are costly in terms of operating expense and manpower to maintain, and it would be competing in DEN with much larger airlines that have more robust networks, FF programs and corporate accounts.
B6 isn't exactly new to the concept of hubs. That's what, like it or not, JFK and BOS are, despite their big O&D base (which any hub should have). Same with LGB. You place a hub where there's plenty of O&D traffic, plus the opportunity to get gravy off of connecting feed. DEN obviously has the potential for O&D (otherwise Southwest wouldn't be anywhere nearby) and its location is closer to the middle of the country than B6's current basis and can thus open up a number of ptential connection scenarios that aren't as attractive right now. Not to mention the potential of less at-max-range flights for A320 non-neos.

As for inviting organized labor onto the premises, that's a much bigger point re: B6 vs. F9. Not sure how they'd handle that, though I wouldn't be surprised if the two airlines' mailie labor costs were comparable due to 9 cutbacks, despite the whole union thing. Heck, F9 may have a cost advantage due to the fact that cost of living in DEN isn't as high as in BOS/JFK...
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Old Nov 30, 11, 10:00 pm   #62
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B6 isn't exactly new to the concept of hubs. That's what, like it or not, JFK and BOS are, despite their big O&D base (which any hub should have). Same with LGB. You place a hub where there's plenty of O&D traffic, plus the opportunity to get gravy off of connecting feed. DEN obviously has the potential for O&D (otherwise Southwest wouldn't be anywhere nearby) and its location is closer to the middle of the country than B6's current basis and can thus open up a number of ptential connection scenarios that aren't as attractive right now. Not to mention the potential of less at-max-range flights for A320 non-neos.

As for inviting organized labor onto the premises, that's a much bigger point re: B6 vs. F9. Not sure how they'd handle that, though I wouldn't be surprised if the two airlines' mailie labor costs were comparable due to 9 cutbacks, despite the whole union thing. Heck, F9 may have a cost advantage due to the fact that cost of living in DEN isn't as high as in BOS/JFK...
Also, to avoid the union thing, perhaps B6 could buy the assets of F9 and invite former F9 employees to apply at B6.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 3:36 pm   #63
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B6's size relative to F9 is such that a union election wouldn't be automatic, let alone a union win. The threshhold is 35% of the combined labor force in the respective job categories for an election, as Delta required when it acquired NW (about 40% of Revenue Passenger Miles, if not headcount).
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Old Dec 1, 11, 11:11 pm   #64
 
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Originally Posted by DenverBrian View Post
Also, to avoid the union thing, perhaps B6 could buy the assets of F9 and invite former F9 employees to apply at B6.
A 10-year Frontier captain makes $146/hour, which roughly translates to $140K/year. A 5-year Frontier FO makes $82/hour, which roughly translates to $75K/year.

A new-hire JetBlue E190 FO makes $47/hour (about $10K more than a Republic E190 FO), which roughly translates to $45K/year.

I doubt many Frontier pilots would be interested in taking up to a $95K/year paycut. I also doubt JetBlue wants to hire such a large group of disgruntled Frontier employees (pilots, FAs, CSRs). JetBlue has an organizational culture that customers identify with. Hiring disgruntled Frontier employees threatens that culture-the culture that that generates JetBlue revenue.

Last edited by Pigeye01; Dec 1, 11 at 11:19 pm.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 11:30 pm   #65
 
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Originally Posted by Pigeye01 View Post
A 10-year Frontier captain makes $146/hour, which roughly translates to $140K/year. A 5-year Frontier FO makes $82/hour, which roughly translates to $75K/year.

A new-hire JetBlue E190 FO makes $47/hour (about $10K more than a Republic E190 FO), which roughly translates to $45K/year.

I doubt many Frontier pilots would be interested in taking up to a $95K/year paycut. I also doubt JetBlue wants to hire such a large group of disgruntled Frontier employees (pilots, FAs, CSRs). JetBlue has an organizational culture that customers identify with. Hiring disgruntled Frontier employees threatens that culture-the culture that that generates JetBlue revenue.
Not doubting you numbers at all, just thinking dang that is a huge difference when cost of living is factored between NYC / BOS and DEN.
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Old Dec 1, 11, 11:34 pm   #66
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Originally Posted by Pigeye01 View Post
A 10-year Frontier captain makes $146/hour, which roughly translates to $140K/year. A 5-year Frontier FO makes $82/hour, which roughly translates to $75K/year.

A new-hire JetBlue E190 FO makes $47/hour (about $10K more than a Republic E190 FO), which roughly translates to $45K/year.

I doubt many Frontier pilots would be interested in taking up to a $95K/year paycut. I also doubt JetBlue wants to hire such a large group of disgruntled Frontier employees (pilots, FAs, CSRs). JetBlue has an organizational culture that customers identify with. Hiring disgruntled Frontier employees threatens that culture-the culture that that generates JetBlue revenue.
Why would F9 pilots rated to fly Airbii suddenly have to go to E190s? Your argument would make more sense if you compared apples to apples. What does a 5-year B6 pilot make flying 320s?
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Old Dec 3, 11, 11:24 pm   #67
 
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Why would F9 pilots rated to fly Airbii suddenly have to go to E190s? Your argument would make more sense if you compared apples to apples. What does a 5-year B6 pilot make flying 320s?
Because every airline I'm familiar with staffs its flights by seniority - The most experienced pilots fly the biggest aircraft for the most pay, and the most junior ones are FOs on the smallest for the least pay.

Now, based on that world, if you take a 5 year F9 pilot and insert them above all the junior B6 pilots, that will make the junior B6 pilots unhappy because their higher paying jobs are now that much farther away. In a merger, something like this usually happens, but not in a buyout and certainly not when you invite people to apply as new employees.
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Old Dec 4, 11, 12:54 am   #68
 
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In a merger, something like this usually happens, but not in a buyout and certainly not when you invite people to apply as new employees.
Ask the Teamsters how the buyout thing and seniority worked out for them this week. It could change on appeal to the full appeals court or the Supreme Court. But that is what they have tried to argue with the former YX FAs via a buyout or assets acquisition.

Former YX FAs win appeal on seniority

Last edited by DCflyerAA-YX; Dec 4, 11 at 2:13 pm.
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Old Dec 4, 11, 11:02 am   #69
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Because every airline I'm familiar with staffs its flights by seniority - The most experienced pilots fly the biggest aircraft for the most pay, and the most junior ones are FOs on the smallest for the least pay.

Now, based on that world, if you take a 5 year F9 pilot and insert them above all the junior B6 pilots, that will make the junior B6 pilots unhappy because their higher paying jobs are now that much farther away. In a merger, something like this usually happens, but not in a buyout and certainly not when you invite people to apply as new employees.
I think you're missing the idea that in a merger, the total number of planes would increase. It still takes two pilots to fly every Airbus.
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Old Dec 4, 11, 9:19 pm   #70
 
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I think you're missing the idea that in a merger, the total number of planes would increase. It still takes two pilots to fly every Airbus.
Based date-of-hire seniority, Airbuses would be crewed by current B6 pilots, who would accrue seniority proportionate to the number of "new hire" former-F9 pilots, who would crew the most junior aircraft (E-190s) as first officers.

Read this: http://www.airlineempires.net/blog/2...he-sacred-cow/

From a business stand point, B6 may not want many F9 employees; mixing business cultures dilutes brand identity.
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Old Jan 9, 13, 3:16 pm   #71
 
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Will a spin-off or sale occur in the coming months?

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst...s/7993785.html

RJET is trading at/near 52 week high.
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Old Jan 9, 13, 5:24 pm   #72
 
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Will a spin-off or sale occur in the coming months?

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst...s/7993785.html

RJET is trading at/near 52 week high.
And part of the reason for the stock price rocket last week was the upward revision of the Frontier margins for Q4.
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Old Jan 9, 13, 8:25 pm   #73
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Will a spin-off or sale occur in the coming months?

http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst...s/7993785.html

RJET is trading at/near 52 week high.
In related news, the sun is predicted to rise tomorrow. F9's been on the block for months according to Republic. It's been reported in the Denver Business Journal many times.
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Old Jan 9, 13, 9:40 pm   #74
 
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In related news, the sun is predicted to rise tomorrow. F9's been on the block for months according to Republic. It's been reported in the Denver Business Journal many times.
Actually, it hasn't.

"Separation" has been on the block for some time, which is the process that has been happening since David Siegel became CEO. The first priority is to make Frontier consistently profitable, else why would anyone want it?

But Republic has said they had not decided which of the options to take - (i) to bring in a private investor or (ii) spin it off with RJET taking a minority position (as required by the FAPA agreement), or some combination of those two. An outright sale was also possible but was seen as the least likely (and probably least desirable) alternative) because it was unlikely that anyone would offer enough money for Republic to come out clean.

As BB said - no one wanted Frontier in Chapter 11, why should it be different now?
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Old Feb 28, 13, 11:41 am   #75
 
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Status of Frontier

During RJET's Q4 earnings call, Bryan Bedford noted the company is held to nondisclosure agreements, but he can confirm discussions with "a number of interested parties." The company expects to have a decision on the path forward in about the next month and currently expects that if a transaction were to occur it, it would be closed by the end of Q2. Bedford also said he was "not speculating on whether or not we will receive any acceptable offers."
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