I agree with the posts that indicate that AFKL has probably done the math (whether their assumptions and business modeling logic are correct or valid in the light of competitive substitutes, only time will tell).
I also agree that for many real frequent travelers that the TRAVEL EXPERIENCE benefits of Elite status outweigh the award miles granted. Particularly for the majority of (young, evolving) business travelers who are required to travel in economy class, an effective FFP can mean the difference between religiously booking all travel on the airline or alliance in question or being indifferent. Being able to enjoy shorter queues both on the phone and at the airport, have priority boarding, into preferred seating, with more generous luggage allowance, guaranteed flight availability, pleasant recognition or extra's on board, complimentary use of lounges with showers, etc. to refresh and work are all extremely valuable to the road warrior, whether traveling for business or pleasure.
As FB moves towards greatly reducing the ranks of those who will qualify for elite or elite+ status, while perversely having to maintain the same large investments in e.g. airport lounges, award seats, etc. to accomodate the huge numbers of Elite-lights from the US Skyteam programs who will continue to have accesst to AFKL elite facilities while the once-loyal AFKL flyers are excluded, I wonder what additional status benefits FB will bring to her remaining few(er) home program elite members.
As FB moves towards greatly reducing the ranks of those who will qualify for elite or elite+ status, while perversely having to maintain the same large investments in e.g. airport lounges, award seats, etc. to accomodate the huge numbers of Elite-lights from the US Skyteam programs who will continue to have accesst to AFKL elite facilities while the once-loyal AFKL flyers are excluded, I wonder what additional status benefits FB will bring to her remaining few(er) home program elite members.
A very wise and well written post.
Regarding AFKL inventing benefits that are only accessible to its "own" members rather than all Skyteam elites: I haven't seen any move towards a major differentiation so far. Sure, some benefits are FB-specific and not awared to other Skyteam Elites (seat guarantee in Y for instance), but it doesn't look like FB has a status "beyond" Platinum which rewards travel on AFKL more than on other Skyteam companies.
There are airlines like Singapore and Lufthansa/Swiss/Austrian that have it: The PPS program is a pure non-miles benefits program, that can only be "earned" by flying Singapore Airlines and Silkair. The HON status on LH/LX/OS doesn't award more miles than flying on another Star carrier and it is labelled "Star Gold". However, it can only be earned by flying LH/LX/OS (and a small number of other smaller affiliated companies), and gives extra benefits within the LH/LX/OS world. Air France has Club 2000, but that can't be earned.
I sometimes have the impression that providing extra benefits to loyal customers to attract/retain business is not part of AFKL's philosophy. Attract people by a huge choice of connections through its two large hubs, have attractive fares, and that should do the job. To be honest, it does work with many people. They may not particularly like or be passionate about AF or KL, but the rational reasons like choice, schedule, fare, network, security are sufficient. (OK, there are exceptions like the one poster in another thread who posted for the first time and driveled something about AF being the best in the world, some service letdowns being normal as all airlines have to make cost cuts... )
__________________ Air France flights this year that worked smoothly (except force majeure): 35%
Flying on March 3rd HKG-CDG in CX paid F with my wife. CX gives decent deal in F (with a great suite) AF does not. The two 777 AF flights are totally empty in F: P8F8A8 for the 77W and P4F4A4 for the 772. All seats offered as A award for 100K, but no taker. The CX flight is F1A0 and all seats assigned except two, meaning that it is almost full with revenue pax. Many French expats in HK have left AF.
Don't worry, there will be 4-5 people in F on the 77W and 3-4 on the 772:
The wife of the commandant de bord
The fiancé of one of the FAs
The nephew of the chef de cabine
The neighbour of the head of Air France's IT help desk
Some guy who has nothing to do with AF, but bought an employee ticket over ebay
__________________ Air France flights this year that worked smoothly (except force majeure): 35%
Programs: FB plat,BD *gold and a bunch of hotel plastic
Posts: 70
while i am sure AFKL has done the math, I seriously doubt that in this day and age companies can take that risk. frequent flyers make up a very sizeable part of the revenues. if you alienate the group of people that goes out of their way to use your services, it is a bad business decision IMO.
as an example, this is what i have done:
the company I work for booked 50 tickets AMS-LAX tickets last year. a mix of Y and Z fares. roughly 75K euro. because of the new earning scheme I have succesfully requested status matches for myself and co-workers with star alliance. one of my co-workers just returned from LAX with air new zealand, and is raving about the difference in Y between NZ and KL.
you might think it is only 75K in lost revenue, but the majority of people here will now also switch their personal travel to star alliance. based on this thread alone, there are many more people that are doing so.
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Gold, IC Hotels Platinum Ambassador
Posts: 232
This is absolutely true. We have a normal routing of ABZ - CDG (or AMS) - JNB - LAD return and used AF/KL and SAA for the last leg on almost every trip so far in the last 4 years. This is due to the price of the AF/KL business tickets being half of that of BA/VS or SA from the UK to JNB. We probably spend 100,000 + pounds a year with them but already we are seeing reductions. I for one just reached my miles required for platinum (thanks to carrying over 70,000 last year) and that should be me plat for life. Having achieved this milestone I got a ticket to JNB next trip on Emirates for much the same fare plus a two week stopover. I notice BA fares to JNB are now approaching AF/KL levels from the UK when they have special deals on (increasingly frequently!) so the points reductions on Z fares will push me to them as well maybe.
I would prefer SAA but they just don;t seem to reduce their C class fares to a level our budget allows from LHR to JNB - as soon as they do, noone in this company will be using AF/KL anymore. Shame, as I do like KL in particular but I may as well get points on the BMI card instead.
Programs: FB Plat, BD*S, CX Silver, BAEC Blue, Amex Cent, R&C 5C, HHonors G, *Wood G, PC Plat, Avis PC
Posts: 718
Slightly OT:
Does anyone know if accruing status miles with the Amex AF KLM Gold card (issued in France) will prolong the FB miles life ? (as it was the case before the change)
Does anyone know if accruing status miles with the Amex AF KLM Gold card (issued in France) will prolong the FB miles life ? (as it was the case before the change)
Yes, it does. This is one nice thing which didn't change.
But as you said, this is only applicable to the French AF KLM Gold Card, not any other card, so not the French Silver card or any card from Netherlands or other countries.
Yes, it does. This is one nice thing which didn't change.
But as you said, this is only applicable to the French AF KLM Gold Card, not any other card, so not the French Silver card or any card from Netherlands or other countries.
I am sorry to be suspicious but with FB nothing can be taken for granted. Do you have confirmed information from AFKL that this the case?
Also, do we know for sure that AMEX spending will still count towards status. Rumours are flying a lot those days (blue or not), but I heard one rumour suggesting that this would not be the case anymore in the near future.
Well, I agree with most of the comments here.
I am quite sad because I saw also a declining service especially in lounges.
The environment is not such relaxing as it should be, food is a pity (sandwiches are horrible...) and they now serve vin du Pays du Var which, for those who understand, is the worst you can offer.
I am very sad...they make the status more difficult to be reached and kept but benefits are worsening...
Having said this, it is all Skyteam which is a creepy team.
AMS lounges have a food which is even more horrible (fatty gouda, tomatoes with colour but without taste, olives from big cans and cucumbers). KLM has never been so bad... so I try firmly to avoid it even when it is a bargain.
AZ... well, dead, now reborn but still with the old mentality and junk food which is a real offense to Italian food... only good coffee ad cakes in the lounges in the morning.
Only CSA is a good company and PRG a very good airport but it is too small and not always really useful.
The others US SKYteam companies I do not know.
Resumé? I will not fly Skyteam just to keep a status empty of value.
Am-I ready to loose Gold status? Yes, if in few months I could earn the same with a Star Alliance company!
After all, life outside of lounges is not always so bad!
Last edited by Squerez; Feb 28, 09 at 9:18 am.
Reason: I forgot CSA!
Then there's another point: even business travelers go on leisure trips from time to time. And believe me, when you're traveling on July 12th with your family incl. a small kid and lots of luggage, it's a relaxing thought to know that one can check in at the Business counter with the shorter line, one doesn't have to worry about too much luggage and one can use the Acces No. 1 lane. Of course FB is poor again in extending certain benefits to family members: for instance, it can happen that although traveling on the same reservation, wife and child get bumped because of overbooking, but daddy who is a status pax is allowed to fly "Monsieur, we are happy to confirm your seat because you are a Platinum". Well thanks, do you expect me to leave my family behind in this madhouse airport of yours??
I got my wife an Amex card. She immediately got Platinum status, so that she can get some extra benefits if she ever needs them. I have Lifetime PE status. Now I'm wondering if she will get it too if we keep the Amex card long enough, and how soon I can get an Amex car for my kids.
I got my wife an Amex card. She immediately got Platinum status, so that she can get some extra benefits if she ever needs them. I have Lifetime PE status. Now I'm wondering if she will get it too if we keep the Amex card long enough, and how soon I can get an Amex car for my kids.
She got Platinum status, so after 10 consecutive years she will become LPE also - if the rules don't change, KLM/AF and/or FB aren't bankrupt due to the changes for worse they made etc. etc.
Your kids has to be 18 or older to get a card. You can get 2 addional cards for free (1 for your wife, 1 for another for example) and 1 for 50 euro/year (another kid?)
She got Platinum status, so after 10 consecutive years she will become LPE also - if the rules don't change, KLM/AF and/or FB aren't bankrupt due to the changes for worse they made etc. etc.
I doubt that this can be true: only the person who qualified through level miles or segments can obtain the LPE.
I do have to admit that the website is not clearly formulated:
Quote:
Your Platinum membership is yours for life after 10 consecutive years of Platinum membership.
I got my wife an Amex card. She immediately got Platinum status, so that she can get some extra benefits if she ever needs them. I have Lifetime PE status. Now I'm wondering if she will get it too if we keep the Amex card long enough, and how soon I can get an Amex car for my kids.
That is a smart move!!
...and it shows how poor FB's commercial logic is. To compare to the FFP I can compare best to (Miles & More, not all perfect either by the way), I do not need to get my wife and family members a card that funnels payment to somewhere I don't want them to be. As a status member, all family members traveling with me on the same reservation are granted the same benefits, thus no bumping for overbooking. The system notes their status as "companion of xxx (status)", and the problem is solved. And for HONs, (=those very frequent flyers that on AFKL still would only be Platinum) partners are given a SEN card for free.
But this is AFKL true sense of customer spirit. They would separate a blind man from his dog, arguing that "only travelers with a handicap are allowed to priority boarding".
PS: I need to update my signature, my weekend flights Paris-Marseille screwed up again thanks to poor customer service from AF, sigh...
__________________ Air France flights this year that worked smoothly (except force majeure): 35%
I doubt that this can be true: only the person who qualified through level miles or segments can obtain the LPE.
I do have to admit that the website is not clearly formulated:
Your quote is all they say aboout LPE, so I can't read anything else but what I said. What about the French Gold AF/Amex card holders? They earn miles, so theoretically you can become PE without flying one single mile. Okay, you have to be a big spender, but it is certainly not impossible.
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