As a side effect in the long term, it's probably going to hit badly the (revenue generating) co-branded AF-KLM-AMEX Gold card too. I suspect most people would enroll just to catch the few thousands EQM necessary to qualify for FB Gold... Less miles for AF and KL flights, harder to get status, more expensive awards, who needs an AF-KLM AMEX Gold now?
Did you just read my post in the other thread? That was exactly my point. If I don't need to be Platinum, I am sure I can get "some" kind of status on segment with my domestic flight at another program, and that untie me from the cobranded Amex. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think of it. And many "high spending" customers should be exec/owner of SMB that are not tied by corporate travel policy, being too small to be effectively targetted. Voyageur Rewards won't help...
Indeed. But the 300% COS bonus and a 100% elite bonus for flying in P as a Plat, were interesting when the redemption rate was on par with the competition... But it's no longer the case, and as I wrote earlier, I think the new and improved FB isn't attractive to premium traveller. I didn't look at business class in my comparison because we don't know yet the redemption table for business, but I guess we'll also see an increase...
You mention BA, is it the better program to suit your travel pattern? Isn't there one offered also more miles for flying in F?
Thanks Richelieu.
The new redemption rate for business has been clearly announced! It is twice (200%) the rate for economy (while it usually was 150%, except for America).
BA is not generous for earning in F class: only 200% compared for 300% on AF or M&M, but it would be insane to pay what AF is asking for an inferior F product. The most attractive program if you fly in F is BMI: you end up earning roughly 500% in F as oppposed to 400% on AF (including elite bonus). As I fly a lot to HKG/NRT OW alliance is good for me. BA is not attractive for its FFP per se, but their Biz bed, service, lounges, T5, website, customer service, prices. I figure out that if I can save 40% on a CX or BA ticket (relative to AF), that is better than any award (it is like one free ticket for every two paid tickets and without having to worry about award availability). Any award on my BAEC comes on top of that and they do frequent promotions on award and paid tickets. And for *A (for me TG, SQ & NH) with BMI Diamond club that is a non-brainer. BMI FFP might disappear soon, but M&M is also great if you fly premium cabins.
Well, some (including me) knew that this was coming, so as said, it is not much of a surprise to me. I am glad I did not put any effort into maintaining my Platinum status during 2008, since it's essentially worthless.
While I do not like the changes (and while I will drop Flying Blue pretty much completely for that reason), one has to recognize what those changes to Flying Blue really mean:
AF/KL are hurting a lot, and they cannot afford to give rebates in the form of miles through Flying Blue anymore as in the past.
Apparently, with the drop in premium traffic and the reduced load factors, their financial room under which they have to operate is severely limited now.
The problem with their math is that those changes essentially render their program to retain a customer more or less useless, which (from my perspective) will most likely result in an even higher percentage of AF/KL passengers being the very cost-consciuous type (flying AF/KL solely because the ticket was cheap), rather than loyal passengers who used to pick AF/KL most of the time even if the ticket was more expensive than the competition.
The changes to Flying Blue certainly won't hurt AF as in areas where they have a very captive passenger base (especially Africa), other more competitive markets will certainly see a negative effect in the long run.
Programs: BD *G, NW PE (back home :)), FD RW (no more), HH Gold, MR Gold, some Amex
Posts: 7,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcs85551
Well, some (including me) knew that this was coming
Although we all knew something was brewing, this is far worse than my worst nightmares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcs85551
AF/KL are hurting a lot, and they cannot afford to give rebates in the form of miles through Flying Blue anymore as in the past.
Apparently, with the drop in premium traffic and the reduced load factors, their financial room under which they have to operate is severely limited now.
Especially in tough economic times you would think they would want to keep their loyal customers? Cut banked miles maybe to ease the pain on redemptions, but significantly lower EQMs? Such that most of us can't make PE anymore w/o a lot of pain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcs85551
The changes to Flying Blue certainly won't hurt AF as in areas where they have a very captive passenger base (especially Africa), other more competitive markets will certainly see a negative effect in the long run.
Exactly, I chose ST over cheaper flights more recently to get some limited benis and 90+% of my miles last year were on ST credited to FB. If it means that I need to fly twice as much to maintain PE ... it's not going to happen.
They just lost it; this is far beyond anything reasonable. Looking at FRA-BOS-FRA: I booked my wife in LH for $495 where she will earn 50%. For $700 I can fly ST @ 25% or have to pay twice as much for 50% or 3 times as much for 100%. Just give me a break, who is staying? People flying only C and F, now avoiding Z-class as well? Yes, there are such pax out there, but I tell you, they won't be able to fill their planes with them.
Last edited by JOUY31; Jan 11, 09 at 10:30 am.
Reason: [/quote] clause corrected for clarity
it seems that they will also loose the category of travellers that like to travel for pleasure. Travelling by plane has become more and more of a hassle, "naked" at security checks, liquid bans, immigration formalities reinforced, queues everywhere, minimum staff who can't handle irregular operations etc.
But still, some travel because they like it, to see new places, to enjoy some drinks in a lounge, to have a good seat and meal onboard, to discover new places etc. But if on the top of the current external hassels, airlines (like AF KL here) start to reduce benefits, comfort, rewards, perks that make travelling more comfortable and enjoyable... at always higher prices, they will soon loose these travellers that do it for pleasure, and not because they need to get from A to B. FFPs technics could keep this category more active but for how long...
"should we go to Argentina this winter? AF has tickets at 1200 EUR each, in 3x4x3 plane, we will get 4000 miles return, to get a "free" ticket after 20 round trips there"
"no... let's take a train/car/ryanair for cheap to Barcelona and enjoy some good tapas, cava, sun and catalunyan landscapes"
The airlines cry about industry commoditization -- that customers are choosing airlines too much based on price and not enough on product/service/brand -- but then these very same airlines go about doing what they can to to eliminate what little differentiation there is and make sure that customers choose them even more based on price than before.
The airlines think of the frequent flyer miles earned from flying as being a volume rebate of sorts and think it now financially rewarding to reduce the value of the rebate. The problem with this line of thinking from the airline is at least twofold:
1. It is when demand is down and supply is plenty that the customers should reasonably be able to expect better deals (i.e., more valuable rebate) than fewer deals (i.e., worse rebate); and
2. It is a manifestation of an obsession on short-term financial results without considering the longer-term economic impact/financial results of such a change on the headline business.
__________________
This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
I'm one of the customers who are now really re-thinking their ST future. I've reached Plat 4 years in a row, all on economy class tickets, with between 74k and 100k EQM. Last year, I had 84k with 47 segments. Assuming I keep a similar travel pattern, I can keep gold going forward, based on segments. My company travel tends to be in classes that are not upgradeable, thus, in future, earning 50-75% of miles. I was ready this year to shell out the personal cash to augment a V fare to a slightly higher fare to get 100% mileage. However, to reach only 50% of mileage, why would I?
So, based on location and travel patterns, I'm now seriously considering a switch to CO. My first trip of 2009 is with them ... and maybe I can get a status match. Why CO? Well, this first trip on an X fare would still earn me 100% miles on FB, and below CHF 900 to get to the US, it's a deal. NW/KL is slightly more expensive, to earn just 25% of miles.
Now, looking at CO, I would not earn segments on most of my fares (due to a TA booking them) and would only get 50% EQM. So maybe it's not the best way to go. Some people talk about OK ... but what are the real pro's of that?
Anyway ... I've got a couple of weeks to think about it ... but my ST days may be numbered. Thank you, AF.
They seem to believe that people will spend more miles as they double the number of needed miles..... (and worse for AF, they could book it on other airlines as well, which will cost AF more money than having them book P award).
No way I (and hopefully all others) will be doing that. I have just started today to book a few longhaul A awards for the next 12 months in order to get rid of my million miles
Programs: DL Plat, LH Sen, US Plat, AF/KLM Plat, UA Gold, CO Gold, VS Gold, Starw Pl
Posts: 8
level miles
Will this affect the level miles earned? For example Z fares internationally, will they still earn 50% premium for level miles, yet only 25% for actual miles?
Old rule in Z fare business class as Platinum member you would earn:
For 1,000 trip miles, 1,500 level miles, and 2,500 award miles.
Does that mean under the new rule this changes to:
For 1,000 trip miles, 1,500 level miles, and 2,250 award miles?
Or:
For 1,000 trip miles, 1,250 level miles, and 2,250 award miles?
I'm sorry if I'm unclear because writing it in English makes it much more convoluted than I'd like to. I hope everyone can see my point, though.
Perfectly clear, and I see your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
AF has got their research right in telling them that high profit customers don't select their flight based on the FFP.
Maybe, but there is also KL to consider.
Those who remember Flying Dutchman in its first incarnation, will recall that it was specifically designed to benefit pax outside KL's home market. KL is highly dependent on transfer pax, and besides competing on price and riding piggyback on Schiphol's reputation, it used FD as a tool to attract custom. Clients in important markets (e.g. UK, Scandinavia) were especially favored, earning the hightest number of points per segment, and pax on Cityhopper feeder flights benefited most of all (just about all Cityhopper flights earned 1100 miles, compared to e.g. 3,600 for a longhaul destination such as JNB). To reach top tier RoyalWing status residents of Sweden needed only 24,000 points, and any points earned above that automatically carried over to the next year and even years after that.
Flying Dutchman was truly generous by nature for those fortunate enough to reside in countries where KL felt it really had to provide an incentive to choose them over the competition.
Back then KL clearly felt that their FF program was an important tool to attract transfer pax and retain their loyalty, and I know that they were not at all happy with FB. I suspect they may well be even less pleased with what is happening now, but Amstelveen is not where these decisions are made any more.
Obviously, one of the stupid things that will come out of this are more 12 or 16 segment promotions. In the months to come, as they see that less frequent flyers are using their services, such a promotion will appear surely. But the miles they offer for completing so many flight segments will probably mathematically equate the miles earned if they kept the programme the way it is, and we just kept on flying as normal. It's daft. People actually have to justify their jobs in marketing departments, and think up these idiotic things. It's like rewriting computer programmes.
An earlier poster suggested writing or emailing to them. I strongly endorse that, keeping it polite of course and not writing just once, but multiple times. I know it's a lot of extra work, but it may well be worth it. And if you possibly can, just avoid using them... they should notice that.
Back then KL clearly felt that their FF program was an important tool to attract transfer pax and retain their loyalty, and I know that they were not at all happy with FB. I suspect they may well be even less pleased with what is happening now, but Amstelveen is not where these decisions are made any more.
This seems to me a significant point. Most of the discussion so far has been about AF; KL is a very different business. KL has no First, and its business class product has steadily deteriorated over the years. For KL to have a FFP that is predicated on attracting large numbers of high-fare passengers is inappropriate. As well, KL has a small domestic market & depends on transfer passengers - those of us in the UK have a huge amount of choice in the airline market & it doesn't take much to push us away from KLM.
I'm not quite sure which economist AF/KLM have been reading, but I'd quite like to know how they think that increasing prices (which is effectively what they're doing by devaluing the FFP benefits) at a time of sharply-reducing demand is going to improve their business. I haven't noticed many other businesses responding to recession in this way.
With FB becoming essentially worthless to all but very high-fare passengers, there's no incentive at all to choose AF/KL above other carriers. Their fares are expensive and service is mediocre. I can do without the lounge (which is the only remaining FB benefit) so after many years of flying KL, I'll be much more opportunistic about which airline I use.
![The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! [merged]](/forum/iconimages/flying-blue-air-france-klm/new-rule-book-here-new-rule-book-here-merged_ltr.gif)
and not writing just once, but multiple times. I know it's a lot of extra work, but it may well be worth it. And if you possibly can, just avoid using them... they should notice that.
