I find regrettable that AF is always following BA like a little dog. Instead of implementing such a complex scheme (25, 75, 115, 175% etc ...), one very simple scheme would be 1 NUC = 1 miles for all classes.
You pay 100 NUC for a CDG-MUC for N ticket, you get 100 FBmiles
You pay 2500 NUC for a CDG-NYC for a Z ticket, you get 2500 FBmiles
You pay 13000 NUC for a CDG-SIN for a P ticket, you get 13000 FBmiles
That way, passengers would be very glad to pay any fuel surcharges
I am thinking of moving to QF/BA for my international flight.
isn't it the principles of the FB AMEX? 10-14 miles / 10 EUR spent? I am sure some airlines would love to link the miles they give you to the revenue you generate, like hotels giving 1000 points / 10 USD spent, etc. But air tickets can be interlinable and then you don't know how many points to give. Like SYD QF HKG AF CDG for 5000 NUC through fare... how many miles should AF give and how many should Qantas give? If air fares were not so complicated, we would have this NUC/miles on many programs already.
Remember, just a few years ago, earning on FD looked like this for a Royal Wing/Platinum Elite:
- 225% of actual miles mileage earning on ALL economy tickets;
- 375% of actual miles mileage earning on ALL business class tickets;
(Elite bonus was also calculated on class of service bonus)
Assuming most of us are rational and do not pay higher fare class levels than needed, now the earning for a Platinum Elite on KL is:
- 50% of actual miles mileage earning on the always available and few competitive "V";
- 225% of actual miles mileage earning on the only biz-ticket worth paying for on KLM "Z";
So, under the current scheme it will take 4,5 times more economy flying or 1,5 times more business flying than before...and once you have your miles saved, the fees you have to pay to buy an award ticket negate any benefit whatsoever.
No doubt, but major companies, even high flyers, have been known to get their research completely wrong, and/or draw the wrong conclusions. Certain big banks come to mind, so who says KLAF is any better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanw
and determined that [...] most of their (valuable) customers don't really count FF matters into the equation when booking a flight.
But if that conclusion is correct, then why not abolish FB outright? Why have a FF program if it doesn't influence passengers' choice of airline? Ain't that what it is for?
one very simple scheme would be 1 NUC = 1 miles for all classes.
but that is the difference between a loyalty and a savings stamp scheme: anyone here loyal to a supermarket because of their ´loyalty´ card? I wouldn´t have thought so. Thus, the only way for AFKL is now to compete on price, ie go down the route of the LCCs. Sad days for me at least.
I find regrettable that AF is always following BA like a little dog. Instead of implementing such a complex scheme (25, 75, 115, 175% etc ...), one very simple scheme would be 1 NUC = 1 miles for all classes.
You pay 100 NUC for a CDG-MUC for N ticket, you get 100 FBmiles
You pay 2500 NUC for a CDG-NYC for a Z ticket, you get 2500 FBmiles
You pay 13000 NUC for a CDG-SIN for a P ticket, you get 13000 FBmiles
That way, passengers would be very glad to pay any fuel surcharges
I am thinking of moving to QF/BA for my international flight.
mmm.... with optimisation, I can renew my BA Gold card for about 2000 NUC. And you would suggest that I spend 45 times as much to renew equivalent status on FB? I don't think so.
But if that conclusion is correct, then why not abolish FB outright? Why have a FF program if it doesn't influence passengers' choice of airline? Ain't that what it is for?
Johan
I think I agree with Alan. AF has got their research right in telling them that high profit customers don't select their flight based on the FFP. Most of their high profit customers either don't chose and follow company policy, or they are looking at the overall product experience (regularity, schedule, consistency of the product, and then "details" like price and FFP) for their business trips.
Of course, people tend to follow the course of action that allow them to minimize pain for the least effort more often than maximizing pleasure irrespective of effort. So, the FFP isn't there to attract new customers (though some, of course, will make a definite effort to fly AF because of the FFP), but to prevent customers for saying "well, I could fly AF or LH, I find their products similar, but I'll fly LH because AF programs sucks".
The goal of the FF program, in my mind, is no longer to attract customers (like it can when it's really more generous than the competion's), but to prevent customers from going away. That's why they don't "just drop FB" as much as they'd like to (or if they do, they [i]will[/b] feel it).
The question in customer satisfaction form and online inquiries are all based on "why have you taken this flight", with answer like scheduled convenience, price, brand recognition and FFP and so on... It's predictable they'll have outcome showing that FFP is very seldom mentionned as a deciding factor for selecting flight (hence their loss of interest in it) but they probably failed to see how it can be a factor for deciding not to fly an airline. A customer "gained" through the FFP won't say "I selected AF based on its FFP", it will say "I chose AF because of X (generally price or convenience)" because the choice is made among pre-selected airlines, and made after ruling out most of them on various basis.
For example, when answering survey on which I chose a TATL flight, I'll tell why I chose AF instead of DL, CO, AZ, KL... which are the other airlines I considered. I won't answer why I chose AF over BA, because I never did that. BA was simply not an option in the first place, because I knew I wouldn't get any benefit for flying with them.
I'm sorry if I'm unclear because writing it in English makes it much more convoluted than I'd like to. I hope everyone can see my point, though.
More miles devaluation on award tix... Like another poster said, I wonder how long before they come up with a three-tier award system a la DL, where it's impossible to get the least expensive one, and difficult to get the medium one...
I was in the process of ditching DL SM for FB, but now I need some other ST alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVA
None. And I'd be happy to share results from a research project I did last month comparing Flying Blue, Diamond Club and Executive Club which showed that at that time already FB was highly uncompetitive in terms of the bang for buck in redeeming.
GVA, I'd love to see that! I'll PM you.
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Flight diary online at BA97.com
And there we have the irony: those who have someone else choose to fly and pay for these tickets will be rewarded for doing nothing and those who would choose themself to fly AFKL are penalized. FB becomes just a perk to sell to corporate travel buyers and their premium flyers -- next to useless as an instrument to influence the loyalty of the rest, and worthless for most travelers.
The flip side of really rewarding the "best" customers is that you aren't a best customer.
Maybe we are facing hard times where the concept of (traditional) loyalty programs is now totally threadbare and devaluated. It's just about "having one", just like any airline, dry-cleaner's or hairdresser. Airlines are not looking for a better loyalty programme, they just need one, any kind of programme will suffice.
"Yeah, let's have this one, over there on the shelf, covered with dust, that nobody wants, you name it: Flying Blue."
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcat
They might attract corporate accounts, but they seem to lose the business of those like me who can actually decide with whom to fly: good business model in these days?
No, this change is not likely to attract or retain corporate accounts. Corporate accounts focus on convenient routes and schedules and cost cutting (especially these days). Besides there is already a dedicated AF-KL reward programme for corporate accounts (where companies get the miles). Let's put it simply, no need to beat around the bush or tourner autour du pot as we say in French, the new FB is giving less for more, period. All the fuss about "more flexibility" is smoke and mirrors. I don't think any serious customer survey would have come up with a "we want more flexibility, we want the system to be as complex as the one in place for revenue fares" outcome.
Since Flying Blue is a separate company, they must provide accounting information. Their business is selling miles to the parent companies and buying tickets from them... I wonder if comparing the revenue they get (miles sold to AF, KL...) and the increase in passenger load could lead to some interesting conclusions about the "generosity"...
Since Flying Blue is a separate company, they must provide accounting information. Their business is selling miles to the parent companies and buying tickets from them... I wonder if comparing the revenue they get (miles sold to AF, KL...) and the increase in passenger load could lead to some interesting conclusions about the "generosity"...
Would these figures be segmented out in the annual reports? Are the filings with tax authorities available?
It would be amusing if the government authorities were asked to investigate to see if the business is being operated as a proper business or if it is being operated like a Ponzi scheme and fundamentally unsound as a result of its assigned board members/corporate officers acting to the detriment of the (subsidiary) company's ability to operate as a legitimate business and going concern -- this won't happen, but it would be amusing if it did.
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This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
Since Flying Blue is a separate company, they must provide accounting information. Their business is selling miles to the parent companies and buying tickets from them... I wonder if comparing the revenue they get (miles sold to AF, KL...) and the increase in passenger load could lead to some interesting conclusions about the "generosity"...
The official profitability of Flying Blue can easily be controlled by its holding company. AF can charge FB with various hefty consulting fees that will basically suck up a large part of the profit in AF accounts therefore conveniently dissimulating the actual profitability of FB.
- Reduced mileage earning on most economy fares - only B and S earn 100%, others are on a 25-50-75 scale
- F awards skyrocketing in price (the example I saw was 400,000 miles for CDG-PEK return)
Changes effective 1 April
Ick, that starts looking worse than M&M as far as economy earnings are concerned. Maybe time to diversify.
The soft landing for elites will stay in effect with FB, right?
Programs: Flying Blue Plat, CO OnePass (former Plat), BA ExClub (former Silver), LH M&M (forever base soldier)
Posts: 513
What is the bucket available to the "Elite special rewards" (at a 15% premium) in Business (I assume it's R in coach) ? The Flying Blue website does not tell. The only info I could find is this (about earning miles):
Valid for trips from 1 April 09 onwards Award ticket excluded from accumulating miles = reservation classes A, O and X on all destinations, Class E for the Caribbean and Indian Oceans, R for long-haul Elite flights in North America, Papeete.
I tried to send the question to FB using the online form but of course it does not work (the form could not be transmitted)
Another question, more prospective and concerning the future Y+ product: if full fare coach earns 100% miles and Z biz 125%, what will Y+ earn? (for redemption it is a safe bet to assume it will be available at 150% the coach reward level, ie. what it took up to now to grab a business seat).
![The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! [merged]](/forum/iconimages/flying-blue-air-france-klm/new-rule-book-here-new-rule-book-here-merged_ltr.gif)
I don't think so.
Like another poster said, I wonder how long before they come up with a three-tier award system a la DL, where it's impossible to get the least expensive one, and difficult to get the medium one...
