Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH nobody, HHonors Diamond, SPG Plat, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Royal Ambassador, hungry BA Gold in CE
Posts: 7,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
The price for business class will be twice the amount you need for coach. So, a AMS-MAD will be 25,000 in coach and 50,000 in business class. A 20% increase of the current amount. AMS-WAS will be 50,000 in coach and 100,000 in business (what was, a few month ago, the price for an F ticket).
As we still don't have the full award redemption table, I am not sure the amount for intra-European business class will be double the one needed for coach. For long-haul, where they need to introduce Economy Plus, it is logical, if painful. On the other hand, BA doubles the amount needed for both medium-haum and long-haul, so I am not sure which path AF/KL will follow.
Programs: FB Plat, MM FT and moving up in the MM charts
Posts: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
A 20% increase of the current amount.
And a wonderfull stab from Lying Screw which seems to be targeted directly at their premium "most valued" customers who always fly J cabin, because for them it means a considerable devaluation of their miles balance.
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If I'd own an airline I'd prefer 1 non-elite paying $4000,- for a ticket over 5 elites whining for op-ups on a $700,- ticket.
As we still don't have the full award redemption table, I am not sure the amount for intra-European business class will be double the one needed for coach.
Are you suggesting that FB is lying in its website pages and videos? They cannot be more clear. I paste below from the website announcement:
"The number of Award Miles required for a Classic Award in Economy Class remains unchanged and serves as the basis for calculating the amount of Award Miles needed for other award tickets.
So, a Classic Award in Business Class requires twice the amount of Award Miles of a Classic Award in Economy."
There is no distinction between mediumhaul and longhaul. Or maybe you have inside information???
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH nobody, HHonors Diamond, SPG Plat, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Royal Ambassador, hungry BA Gold in CE
Posts: 7,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunos
Are you suggesting that FB is lying in its website pages and videos? They cannot be more clear. I paste below from the website announcement:
"The number of Award Miles required for a Classic Award in Economy Class remains unchanged and serves as the basis for calculating the amount of Award Miles needed for other award tickets.
So, a Classic Award in Business Class requires twice the amount of Award Miles of a Classic Award in Economy."
There is no distinction between mediumhaul and longhaul. Or maybe you have inside information???
No, on all counts. I am not saying that AF/KL is lying nor do I have inside information. But I have seen that what they say about mileage accrual for Z fares applies only to long-haul flights, not to medium-haul flights. I am just formulating a hypothesis, due to the fact that the new program rules have not yet been made fully available.
As we still don't have the full award redemption table, I am not sure the amount for intra-European business class will be double the one needed for coach.
Yes of course, we can only base ourselves on FB communication. They stated that business redemption is twice the amount of economy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FB website explaining the new rules
Le nombre de Miles-Prime requis pour une Prime Classic en classe Economique ne change pas. Il sert de base de calcul pour définir le montant de Miles-Prime sur les autres billets prime.
Ainsi, une Prime Classic en classe Affaires requerra deux fois le montant de Miles-Prime d’une Prime Classic en classe Economique.
No, on all counts. I am not saying that AF/KL is lying nor do I have inside information. But I have seen that what they say about mileage accrual for Z fares applies only to long-haul flights, not to medium-haul flights. I am just formulating a hypothesis, due to the fact that the new program rules have not yet been made fully available.
The mileage accrual of 125% in Z apply for long-haul, business class in Europe still gets 200%. It's exactly what we're told on their website, and isn't a speculation. Here's the chart published on their website :
There is no evidence that the redemption rate intra-Europe would be different than what they say on the website (twice the amount of miles needed for economy), especially since they pointed that doubling the amount needed for business was an improvement since it made understanding the amout of miles needed easier to calculate (primary school level in arithmetics is low, reports said, but primary school children are still much better than businessmen).
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH nobody, HHonors Diamond, SPG Plat, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Royal Ambassador, hungry BA Gold in CE
Posts: 7,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
The mileage accrual of 125% in Z apply for long-haul, business class in Europe still gets 200%. It's exactly what we're told on their website, and isn't a speculation. Here's the chart published on their website :
There is no evidence that the redemption rate intra-Europe would be different than what they say on the website (twice the amount of miles needed for economy), especially since they pointed that doubling the amount needed for business was an improvement since it made understanding the amout of miles needed easier to calculate (primary school level in arithmetics is low, reports said, but primary school children are still much better than businessmen).
Again, it is my personal hypothesis (and hope !). When you listen to Mme Benquet-Bessagnet's interview, she does mention that mileage accrual in a given cabin would be more closely linked to the fare paid, so I was pleasantly surprised with the 200% mileage accrual for Z-fares on medium-haul flights.
What I now need is the equivalent for redemption of the table you have quoted for accrual, and it is still, unfortunately, unavailable.
What I now need is the equivalent for redemption of the table you have quoted for accrual, and it is still, unfortunately, not available.
Well, it's not published in a chart, but they state:
The redemption table in economy don't change (so they don't need a chart, it's published as part of the standard FB page)
The miles needed for economy is twice the amount needed for coach classic award
The miles needed for expanded inventory economy award is 1,15 times teh amount needed for coach classic award
The miles needed for a flex award is twice the amount needed for the same award. (Only available to elite in Business class)
They don't need to publish a chart, since the amount needed can be quickly computed.
The only thing that is not clearly published is the redemption rate for First class award. We know from the website that it will be a multipier of the base amount needed for classic award in coach. According to the only example they provide, it looks like it's 5 time the amount needed for coach, but it's not clear, and definitely needs clarification.
We also need to know the accrual depending on the fare paid on other skyteam carriers.
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH nobody, HHonors Diamond, SPG Plat, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Royal Ambassador, hungry BA Gold in CE
Posts: 7,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
Well, it's not published in a chart, but they state:
The redemption table in economy don't change (so they don't need a chart, it's published as part of the standard FB page)
The miles needed for economy is twice the amount needed for coach
They don't need to publish a chart, since the amount needed can be quickly computed.
The only thing that is not clearly published is the redemption rate for First class award. We know from the website that it will be a multipier of the base amount needed for classic award in coach. According to the only example they provide, it looks like it's 5 time the amount needed for coach, but it's not clear, and definitely needs clarification.
We also need to know the accrual depending on the fare paid on other skyteamcarriers.
I would also be interested to know whether there is any change in the structure of the regions for awards. That's another reason why I need the full chart. I definitely would like the information to be clearly spelt out on a single page, I don't need to go to the current rules and then apply the changes.
Edited to add: info on upgrade & Alizé cabin awards would be useful, too.
I would also be interested to know whether there is any change in the structure of the regions for awards. That's another reason why I need the full chart. I definitely would like the information clearly spelt out on a single page, I don't need to go to the current rules and then apply the changes.
Yes, it would be easier to read with a single page. But I can see the reasoning behind just saying "everything stays the same for coach redemption" (which should imply "no region change"). I don't blame them for that (for once). But you're right that an exhaustive chart wouldn't hurt at all!
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM), France and TravelBuzz!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Paris, France, AF F+ Rouge pour toujours, Flying Blue whatever, LH nobody, HHonors Diamond, SPG Plat, formerly proud SCC Executive, now IC Royal Ambassador, hungry BA Gold in CE
I must agree with Richelieu that all accrual and redemption levels are crystal clear for AF & KL except for redemption in First class, where the 5 times coach seems a reasonable guess. But of course, FB could have made mistakes in their current communication and that would not be a surprise.
Or they could decide to make other changes. Since they have had three First class levels in six months (Beijing increased from 160Kmiles in september to 180 in october and 400 in April), noone would be surprised if they made another change.
Programs: FB Plat, MM FT and moving up in the MM charts
Posts: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunos
Are you suggesting that FB is lying in its website pages and videos? They cannot be more clear.
I partially agree. They are very honest and clear about redemption and accrual and the figures. But they are not very honest in the choice of their words.
__________________
If I'd own an airline I'd prefer 1 non-elite paying $4000,- for a ticket over 5 elites whining for op-ups on a $700,- ticket.
I think a lot of the bad press AF is getting here is linked to their communication (aka treating customers as if they were idiots), the way they handled the change, and so on.
If they had been upfront with them and gave reasonable notice, we could have parted with no hard feelings. They don't care about our feelings, of course, since people determined to leave would have anyway (why would they care more about ex-customers than current customers?)
Due to the current economy, it's probable that AF/KLM will post a loss on their third quarter.
Will they claim shareholder will rejoice at this news, as they are aligning with the airline industry standard of losing money, and that in-depth research has demonstrated that their shareholders wanted them to reduce earnings and dividends ?
If so, we'll now that the head of FB communication was promoted to financial communication.
LOL! Being a follower of losers down the toilet is more important than being a leader and caretaker of loyal customers into profitability.
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