Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. CO Plat, reluctant DL Plat, former BA jumpseat rider
Posts: 1,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mennix
AFKL does read this thread. Already have seen KL FB help desk stuff reading it during their work time lol.
However, AFKL will not respond in public. They will also not change anything until April 1st. But be sure they're alarmed.
I think latest at the end of June, 3 month after they implemented their "improvements" they will have a review at their FF accounts. If anybody wants them to change something, my only advise must be: Don't fly a single flight with them in the second quarter 2009. I myself come from a 2 weekly TATL service ( mostly "Z", sometimes "I" or "D" ) down to ZERO. Last flight is done.
I expect a call ( they did this some years ago, too when I couldn't fly fo a while because of illness ) latest in mid of July. My answer why I stopped using them will be quite clear.
Don't fly anymore and don't give them your money. This is the only way to show them, that they don't improve their income by this changes, but that they are loosing money. Money is the only word they understand.
Good by AFKL, welcome BA ( as long, als they do not start to handle "I" fares worse, than regular Business ).
Yes the blue demons are reading this. Heyyyy!!
The situation does seem problematic for FB members. The AFKL corporate monolith listens only slightly better than BA - which isn't saying much.
Over at DL, in case you hadn't seen, newly-assimilated redtail members and existing DL PM rebelled against some rather last-minute erosions to SM and WP. The chronology of the DL backdown from some depradations leads us to believe that FT activities were a part of this reversal of strategy. These actions included:
An organized leafletting campaign conducted at CRCs and WCs systemwide (over sixty people were vigorously campaigning, alerting DL PM to the coming changes. The lack of DL transparency bit them badly when their own members began to learn about forthcoming changes through WP members)
Calls to stock analysts prior to the DL earnings call
Letter and email campaign to the management and the feedback channels.
Sending status match documents to management with listings of lost business.
The grassroots volunteerist strategy is good if enough high-energy pushback can be mobilized through the effective channels. But I feel that such outward spirit can be lacking in the Euro forums. I can't easily imagine a rebellion of this type being orchestrated in the Crown Lounges, more's the pity.
As for not flying them to send the message, yes, if you're talking high fares. But otherwise the remedy is to fly them more...on the cheapest fare classes! Route MAN-JFK/EWR-AMS-CAI instead of MAN-AMS-CAI when possible.
Moderate devaluations with plenty of advance notice don't really upset members these days. We expect them. It's the quick stabs in the back, especially no-notice changes, that kill our loyalty.
Very true. I have received today a phone call from the team supervisor at Air France with an acknowledgement of receipt of my letter. She said that they did not realise how bad the reaction would be. They are definitely going to think of doing something to try to soften the damage. She can't tell me what exactly is going to be done yet but definitely something will come. Unlike what many people have been suggesting, they do care about their Elite Plus Members and do not want to see us leaving in droves.
However, I do agree with earlier suggestions on here that we should keep the pressure up and avoid making further bookings until they announce the cancellations of the changes as well as the long-overdue improvements.
Yes, you can soften the changes afterward, but your customers will fear that it's just a matter of time until you take another stab at it.
Yeah, loyalty is built on trust. If you know that you can't trust FB to introduce last-minute extreme devaluation of the program, you'll be defiant in the future, and you'll certainly avoid to have long-term expectations... And banking 400,000 miles to get a P reward can take a lot of time, more than it takes for the program to change again!
Even if they drop part of this changes, the damage will be done as those who left will certainly take some time before reconsidering their main carrier choice. So it actually reduce their incentive to cancel the changes, as it may stop any further degradation but won't reset the situation...
I'm going to let the previous post stand, because I'm feeling charitable. However to answer the question, um, no. FT in general, and this forum in particular, does not exist solely to entertain a single person. For those who don't want to read the contents of this thread, there is a simple solution: don't click on it!
The previous poster seems to forget the founding objective of FT, which is the FFP reward program as stated on its home page: "FlyerTalk is an interactive community that provides up-to-date information on travel-related loyalty reward programs. It’s the hub that brings everyone together -- from leisure travelers to mileage junkies -- to converse about programs, get the latest program buzz or discuss how to maximize points or miles. " . So this thread fits exactly the prupose of FT.
BTW I sent a couple of emails to FB over three weeks ago, including a very important question (important to me and other FB members): What if I make a booking today in A class and wish to change the flight date after April 1st, as A class will disappear from the system? No answer whatsoever. Anyone has a clue.
All the factual information that there is to know is here: http://www.flyingblue-info.com/uk/ which means that sadly, the reason why you and everyone are still waiting to learn what the new accrual charts are for Skyteam partners is because FB cannot be a-sed to mention them. All we know is that it starts at 25% for all partners, except NW which has the dubious 'privilege' of having a 0% category (I'm not sure how this differs from a non-eligible class, unless it means that it is the polar opposite of domestic segments for French residents in that you get 0% miles but 1 segment??)
This means that the second thread that you propose would be pretty empty at this stage and likely to remain so for a while I would imagine. By contrast, if this is thread no1, I guess there is still plenty of frustration around for all of us to keep confirming how shocking we find the change of rules...
There are still some unknowns on the award side. For example, the Beijing illustration on FB site lists a new F award at 400 000. It is currently 180 00 (and used to be 160 000 three months ago) with penty of availability. That means that to get a F award, it will not only double but ALSO the base is increasing from 180 000 to 200 000. I would be surprised if AFKL had not decided to increase many other award levels. That could be one reason for the secrecy. Maybe they will make a grand gesture and roll it back to 360 000 to show their goodwill. But it would still be crazy to burn 360 000, when you can get it for half on most other airlines, or you can burn 160 000 in J.
Frankly, I am astounded by the apparent lack of preparation of AFKL. The plan was allready announced on this Forum by some knowledgeable posters mid-2008.
HOWEVER, I fully agree that a single thread is best as all the questions are interrelated.
This is why programs need to do a MUCH better job of vetting their program changes with focus groups and such BEFORE they announce any changes. Yes, you can soften the changes afterward, but your customers will fear that it's just a matter of time until you take another stab at it.
Moderate devaluations with plenty of advance notice don't really upset members these days. We expect them. It's the quick stabs in the back, especially no-notice changes, that kill our loyalty.
I would ask if AF-KL is copying one from the DL management playbook -- sort of leak out a bunch of devaluations over a somewhat short period of time and then pretend like you are listening to your customers by instituting most but not all of the originally mentioned devaluations; this just happens to get into place all those devaluations that management intended to institute anyway but needed political cover for in order to get its way then or within about 12 months thereafter.
Creating fake customer victory opportunities and stoking such false "we won" sentiments is part of a sleazy effort to manipulate customers and maximize the abuse they take and make it stick.
__________________
This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
Yeah, loyalty is built on trust. If you know that you can't trust FB to introduce last-minute extreme devaluation of the program, you'll be defiant in the future, and you'll certainly avoid to have long-term expectations... And banking 400,000 miles to get a P reward can take a lot of time, more than it takes for the program to change again!
Come on,let's be serious a little bit!!! 400 000 miles is quite easy to get, it is 10 return trips in P from Europe to US west cost more or less. So if you cannot fork out 100 000 EUR from your own pocket for travelling, you are not worth anything that justifies getting a P award or to even be a valued (and rewarded) FB member!
... dammit, i sound very arrogant, mean and stupid in this reply... but isn't it what AFKL also means with these changes?
Of course, this reply should be taken with a dose of irony even if it is sadly quite true actually
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Creating fake customer victory opportunities and stoking such false "we won" sentiments is part of a sleazy effort to manipulate customers and maximize the abuse they take and make it stick.
That's too clever by half.
My corollary to Occam's Razor says: Never attribute to malevolent genius that which can be adequately explained by ignorant incompetence.
Been away for a while (traveling) so just found out about these changes today. My first reaction was to sent an email to AF/KL telling them that they will lose my business as a private traveller.
My reasoning was (before the change):
Pro:
AMS is my home airport so KL was always very convenient.
The girls and boys in blue
Easy to requalify as Gold
FB Web Awards (very good value!)
AMEX FB card
Relatively cheap C fares to US
Direct flights to KUL and MNL
Cons:
No seat selection before check in (even as Elite)
The slippery slope (also known as their business class seat)
The lounges
AF
CDG
Award availability (basically I went where the awards were)
25% miles for the cheapest tickets (but I could live with that)
Now I have read this topic and became reasonably pissed off...
What changed?
I qualified as BA Gold and now know how it is to be treated as royalty
The lounge facilities at LHR make a stopover almost a pleasure.
Requalifying is now almost impossible (I probably will due to business travel)
Awards even more expensive
So, what now?
No more KL/AF for long haul private travel
Ask company to switch my flights to BA (we can)
Find a *A airline that will match my Gold status for the KL routes.
Spend my remaining 250K miles on WebAwards within 3 years.
Find a new credit card linked to either BA or my new *A airline
__________________ Wherever you go, there you are.
I guess whether FB is going to take any action or not before or after April, I am already out of this game. The program is just too flaky with changes coming out of the blue. I don't want to keep switching between them or another ST program, so now I have returned back to my old ST program and will just stay there..(unless they get eaten up by AF/KLM in the future).
But all my business now for the coming year and next will be going to *A and OW. They are a breath of fresh air after all the issues with FB and AF/KLM attitude. Only way I will fly them if there are no option or forced too.. only thing I will miss is the those cute houses.
Au revoir/Tot ziens FB!
You will be so thankful to AF's creation of Flying Poo and delegation of KL to the easyjet segment that they helped you discover the better alternatives out there. Trust me.
Letting ourselves be bribed with the remaining trinkets that FB pretends to offer is an insult to our intelligence. An absence of core product can not be made up for with a half-assed program.
I have just received a text from a friend catching a flight from Schipol this morning (30/01) and he was telling me about huge posters being put up by LH offering a M&M status match for Flying Blue members. Can anyone confirm this please?
Had a look around airside non-Schengen, and could not find any such posters. Guess it would make more sense for LH to advertise on the Schengen side, though.
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I suppose I could dust off the postcards I made for the FB launch a few years ago. They might be repurposable. Possibly to put AA, BD, and LH status match guides on the back.
My corollary to Occam's Razor says: Never attribute to malevolent genius that which can be adequately explained by ignorant incompetence.
Ordinarily yes -- but when it comes to DL, this is an exception and so it's not too clever by half but rather a hit dead-center. Incompetent and sleazy aren't mutually exclusive characteristics of management when their target audience is largely ignorant, apathetic or lethargic.
__________________
This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
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