In my opinion, the real problem is not about the rules (AF and FB may change them as often as they like, if it is authorized by the fine prints, and we may leave when we like it, they have nothing to say).
In my opinion, lamentations and complaints are useless.
I nevertheless think :
- the non-publication of the official accrual table (other carriers) is unlawful, because if we buy the ticket today, we dont konw how much it will be redeemed (for instance DL). I am not sure that a French Court would not cause some problems (collective actions are forbidden according to the French Law), because the Code civil says that a purchase is perfect when the two parts agree about "le prix et la chose". If the price is known, the "thing" is not, and redeeming seems to be a part of "la chose". People at AF should keep in mind that lawful information is very important, and that misunderstanding causes a lot of problems ;
- about the surcharges, I hope they will stay as long as possible. I recognize that they are not very good for free tickets, but for my business, they are great : for instance, I have a TLS/PVG about 50/50 price/taxes. It is very cheap, and half refundable ! I am also planning a TLS/LAX and the price is 506 €, 339 € taxes ;
- the last real problem is the lack of webawards. I suppose, according to the French Law, that advertising about that and no showing any six months long is unlawful.
I sum up :
I think we shall get a whole package on apr 1st : bad gains, no more surcharges, comeback of awards.
I don't know how things work in France, but I can assure you that fuel surcharges are not refundable in lots of countries (Norway, where I live, included). Reason is that the fuel surcharges are not taxes per say - the majority of those charges are not retrieved by the government, and if they were, in most countries I believe only the VAT portion of the surcharges would be refundable nevertheless.
I don't know how things work in France, but I can assure you that fuel surcharges are not refundable in lots of countries (Norway, where I live, included). Reason is that the fuel surcharges are not taxes per say - the majority of those charges are not retrieved by the government, and if they were, in most countries I believe only the VAT portion of the surcharges would be refundable nevertheless.
Regards,
Bjorn
There have been several reports of successful reimbursement of taxes (but I'm in France, and all the examples I can think of happened also in France). Taxes are due when you board the flight. If you don't take it, you can't be charged more for using fuel. I suppose it must vary with consumer protection laws around the world. It would be interesting to determine where they're the most protective and by tickets at an agent there.
There have been several reports of successful reimbursement of taxes (but I'm in France, and all the examples I can think of happened also in France). Taxes are due when you board the flight. If you don't take it, you can't be charged more for using fuel. I suppose it must vary with consumer protection laws around the world. It would be interesting to determine where they're the most protective and by tickets at an agent there.
I agree with Richelieu. Taxes are refundable in France, as soon as :
- you do not begin your trip ;
- you do not "no show".
There is one little taxe of which I dont remember which has no refund, but it is marginal.
Ask the AF reservation center for information, all calls are monitored, they will say what happens in your country.
Sorry, I misunderstood jmbfrance's post. What I read was that he would get the taxes refunded as one gets VAT refunded on business investments, not in the terms of having the taxes refunded when not taking the flight.
BA refunds the taxes when you don't take the flight. I had to cancel two tickets recently (non-refundable I fares) and received a credit on my VISA account which I had used to purchase the tickets for the Fuel Surcharge and the Security "Taxes and Fees". I don't think the VAT is refundale.
I've been posting on this thread saying the economics of flying AF/KL for me would continue to beat Star Alliance/One World. There seems to be a mass exodus so I thought I should spend time looking at it in depth...maybe I had missed something
My flights are UK-China. With almost no juggling of dates, I can always get a Discounted Business fare (Z) with AF/KL for around £1,550 - £1,650
So I checked out Star Alliance. Qatar are the same price, LH are about £100 more. No problem I thought...£100 isn't a big deal if I can get better redemptions, u/g certificates etc, I could get the clients to pay that. The LH routings are fine also, Qatar's aren't so great
So I did a couple of dummy bookings in LH (and Qatar) discounted business. No flexibility !! My flight out date is pretty well fixed, but return dates always move around. No possibility of changing a LH/Qatar Z ticket...disaster. The only way is to go for semi-flexible, which increases the cost to about £2,300
The result is that I would have to go for semi-flexible....but this is a cost premium over AF/KL of £700. Can I justify charging a client this extra just to use a better FFP? No. So with a (slightly) heavy heart, AF/KL keep my business
The final part of the decision was that LH don't seem to run half miles promotions like AF/KL do. These are my only redemptions, so AF/KL (to me at least) require significantly fewer miles to redeem, even with the post April 1 changes
Shame really as it would give a certain satisfaction in shifting the business as AF/KL are so arrogant - but the economics don't stack up
If they change the rules re flexibility of Z though............
The French Added Value Tax is fully refundable, by definition, if the added value is not added. If it is unclear :
- you have at ticket, I sum up 500 € fare and 500 € surcharge, plus about 100 VAT for fare and 100 VAT for surcharge ;
- you don not use the ticket : the fare part is cashed by AF (added value, you pay500+100) ; the surcharge is not cashed, not added value, you get 500 + 100).
I just do not understand why AF stick to the surcharge system : they provide semi-refundable tickets !
[quote=I just do not understand why AF stick to the surcharge system : they provide semi-refundable tickets ![/QUOTE]
OT but just because while a very little percentage of pax might understand that it is the equivalent of a semi refundable ticket most people either don't use the flexibility of their ticket or simply forget to ask for the reimbursement.
so at the end the balance of the surcharge is largely in favor of AF
Moderator: Flying Blue and Other European Frequent Flyer Programs
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: BCN - BD *G · Flying Dutchman RW
Posts: 7,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickyboy
I've been posting on this thread saying the economics of flying AF/KL for me would continue to beat Star Alliance/One World. There seems to be a mass exodus so I thought I should spend time looking at it in depth...maybe I had missed something
My flights are UK-China. With almost no juggling of dates, I can always get a Discounted Business fare (Z) with AF/KL for around £1,550 - £1,650
So I checked out Star Alliance. Qatar are the same price, LH are about £100 more. No problem I thought...£100 isn't a big deal if I can get better redemptions, u/g certificates etc, I could get the clients to pay that. The LH routings are fine also, Qatar's aren't so great
So I did a couple of dummy bookings in LH (and Qatar) discounted business. No flexibility !! My flight out date is pretty well fixed, but return dates always move around. No possibility of changing a LH/Qatar Z ticket...disaster. The only way is to go for semi-flexible, which increases the cost to about £2,300
The result is that I would have to go for semi-flexible....but this is a cost premium over AF/KL of £700. Can I justify charging a client this extra just to use a better FFP? No. So with a (slightly) heavy heart, AF/KL keep my business
The final part of the decision was that LH don't seem to run half miles promotions like AF/KL do. These are my only redemptions, so AF/KL (to me at least) require significantly fewer miles to redeem, even with the post April 1 changes
Shame really as it would give a certain satisfaction in shifting the business as AF/KL are so arrogant - but the economics don't stack up
If they change the rules re flexibility of Z though............
nickyboy
Qatar isn't in Star Alliance, and there are lots of other options besides LH. MS, TK, SK, LX and CA will all be happy to sell you a discounted biz ticket (you can probably go in F on MS for the same price - the service is crap but 300% miles).
Programs: KLM gold, Bmi gold, LH SEN, (SAS, BA junk)
Posts: 141
Stop complaining and start moving :-)
This is my way of saying goodbye KLM. It was two interesting years, but now its Star Alliance instead that get my action... BMI did a status match (so now I am Gold on BMI and KLM for 2009, and that will come handy, since I travel on a lot of different airlines). Absolutely no need to be loyal.
Programs: AF/KL FB Platinum, BA Exec Club, CO One Pass Hilton Gold, IC Ambassador, Starwood Gold etc etc
Posts: 1,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanw
Qatar isn't in Star Alliance, and there are lots of other options besides LH. MS, TK, SK, LX and CA will all be happy to sell you a discounted biz ticket (you can probably go in F on MS for the same price - the service is crap but 300% miles).
I couldn't agree more with Alan - the possibilities with MM are almost endless: to most destinations, you can ask OS, LX, Sk and more. You get 200% miles, so in a way, if you are 'customer conscious' you could almost buy a new ticket with the difference if you have to change your flight every few times, especially as your status-based bonus also counts. Flexible economy would get you 150% and as Alan mentioned, first at 300% will be cheap on several airlines! As for Z fares with AF-KL, their flexibility depends on the exact fare code, for instance the Z promotion to LAX last Autumn had a hefty fee if you needed to change your trip, not to mention that if, when you need to change your AF/KL flight date, Z is not available, which happens often if you do it close to your travel date, the fare bump to I is often steeper than on LH.
Up until now, I've left this alcohol-fuelled, inappropriate and abusive post of mine stand, primarily to teach/remind myself that there are consequences to posting on FT when in a drunken, grumpy mood. But I think I've learnt my lesson and it's now time to remove the most offensive sections.
I'll leave some for the sake of thread continuity ... sincere apologies to any who were offended by the OP and, also, sorry if this edit makes some of the following references seem a little odd.
--Henry
So I'm naive, rather than stupid: since I realised that I could (quite easily) get Platinum status, I've moved all my travel (where possible) to KL/AF/SkyTeam, and I don't (yet) regret it. And, as an aside, I will do all in my power to avoid BA, as I will not support any company that persecutes its staff for their religious orientation (remember the check-in assistant wearing the crucifix -- I'll never forget that one).
For this year, as I already have booked/travelled 35K EQMs, I'll stick with the FB, 'cos I'll have no major problems requalifying (even if I have to rely on segments, rather than EQMs, after the April Fools' Day Change). And there's always the status match to *A early next year!
Moderator: Flying Blue and Other European Frequent Flyer Programs
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: BCN - BD *G · Flying Dutchman RW
Posts: 7,517
I'm going to let the previous post stand, because I'm feeling charitable. However to answer the question, um, no. FT in general, and this forum in particular, does not exist solely to entertain a single person. For those who don't want to read the contents of this thread, there is a simple solution: don't click on it!
![The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! [merged]](/forum/iconimages/flying-blue-air-france-klm/new-rule-book-here-new-rule-book-here-merged_ltr.gif)
