In trying to sell pathetic reduction in service and benis as 'enhancements', they are simply insulting us and what good does this do?
It's a very common trope in business management to try to present every price increase, service decrease and so on as "improvements". It's, in fact, so common, that someone determined that they would be more people who will fall for the lie than people who will take the time to try to understand the reality and realize it's a lie (and be disgruntled thereafter). It's so prevalent I suspect it's taught in business schools (but didn't attend one, so anyone is free to correct me), because I can't imagine so many businesses would take the dishonesty route independently...
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Posts: 79
These marketing tactics were definitely no taught in my business school. But Kenny Rogers did teach me to "know when to hold em, know when to fold em, and know when to walk away"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
In my mind, yes, they are [insulting]. And why shouldn't they?
I don't read it that way. It is just standard practice across all frequent flyer and frequent guest programmes that have to announce a devaluation of the programme. Would I do it this way ? I hope not. But then, I don't work in the travel or hospitality industry and I am no longer in a customer support position. They are not better nor worse than all the others who have practiced devaluation. I would have hoped that they could be better, but on the other hand, any industry sector and any company, for that matter, is now looking at short-term survival and the cash position. Other considerations rank lower.
In my mind, yes, they are. And why shouldn't they?
If the customer has the ability to change his air transport provider, and has already decided that the changes in the FFP would make the AF/KLM option inferior to the competition, it doesn't matter if they present it respectfully or not: they'll already have made the decision to leave. Business is lost anyway. If the customer can't chose, because he's tied either by routes or company policy (and I think they determined that most of their J or P customers are in this position), it doesn't matter how they present the changes, as they will still get the business. If the customer has the ability to chose and doesn't care about the FFP, telling "it will be very good, as good as before" will make them stay (as they won't realize anything went wrong), while telling "we're sorry, we have to reduce the benefits of the FFP because we want to do more profit", they might lose some customers who would look into the changes (or who would desert at the bad news without looking futher).
What would they gain by being respectful? They are not here to be polite, they are here to make money. It might imply, in many case, respecting your customer. In this particular context, I don't think they stand to gain on the short-term by having an honest communication. Don't get too emotional over that, you're empowering them too much. It's a pathetic behaviour from them, but the end-of-year bonus of the FB management won't be determined by how honest they have been, only by how much profit they generated.
You're quite right. FB have only 3 choices as to what to say; nothing, the truth or a heavlily spun, selectively worded upbeat statement.
If they are motivated by profit maximisation rather than honesty and integrity maximisation...they have selected the correct option for the reasons you have explained. Most customer facing organisations who do something that improves thier profitability at the expense of the benefits of the customers do the same sort of spin
Programs: FB Plat, BMI DC *A Gold, LH MM Very Dark Blue, ANA (for the tool), ES Carte Blanche, SNCF + hotels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymbus
Do miles expire expire on BMI ? I also heard BMI might status match me. Is there any disadvantage for being BMI and flying mainly LH or ANA ?
No, membership miles (that is the ones you actually spend on awards) do not expire in bmi's Diamond Club. There are lots of reports (see the Diamond Club forum) on status matches, but if you don't get one, you will need to read the Sticky there on how to reach Gold. DC is not like FB in that you have an individual membership year in which you try to earn miles to improve or keep your status. This year is reset each time you go up a level, though any excess status miles are carried forward until you reach the top.
Both earning and redemptions levels are very generous (most Business Class fares earn 200%, but Business Class redemption are only 150% of Economy ones) and for everything except LH F, you can even pay a fairly small cash amount and use half the required number of miles. This way an First Class return to North America comes in at 50,000 miles plus £340 (plus taxes).
There is no disadvantage in being in DC but flying mostly other Star Alliance airlines. But be aware that now that LH owns most of bmi, people on the DC board are wondering if we will end up in M and M one day in the not too distant future.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
What would they gain by being respectful? They are not here to be polite, they are here to make money.
This may work very well in French culture, which is (with all due respect and no pun intended) a culture that is not very well known for service oriented approaches. But it doesn't work in many other cultures, and since lots of the FB members are not used to French culture, I think that this point of view would be a big mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
Don't get too emotional over that, you're empowering them too much.
Yes I do tend to get emotional when I am lied to. Especially after having put many years of confidence and trust in the source of the lies. And even if I were enlightened enough not to get upset about it, then still many other people would. Such things are not good for business. I don't see how that would empower them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
It's a very common trope in business management to try to present every price increase, service decrease and so on as "improvements". It's, in fact, so common, that someone determined that they would be more people who will fall for the lie than people who will take the time to try to understand the reality and realize it's a lie (and be disgruntled thereafter).
Any FB frequent flyer who checks their miles credit in the future will see 50% and 75% where they are used to 100%. Any FB frequent flyer who has booked a J award ticket in the past will see their miles have devaluated. Will it make them less upset than us, who have found out before them? No!
In the end people will notice. Wether it is presented as an enhancement or not. In the end it will be experienced as an insult, a rip-off or something else along the lines. And maybe a few say "C'est la vie" when they are treated like that. But many more don't. Check out what this guy says for example: Only 50% miles on Economy Flexible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelieu
It's a pathetic behaviour from them, but the end-of-year bonus of the FB management won't be determined by how honest they have been, only by how much profit they generated
This type of short term vision management is becoming very impopular these days.
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If I'd own an airline I'd prefer 1 non-elite paying $4000,- for a ticket over 5 elites whining for op-ups on a $700,- ticket.
Last edited by Zembla; Jan 17, 09 at 4:57 pm..
Reason: added the example
This may work very well in French culture, which is (with all due respect and no pun intended) a culture that is not very well known for service oriented approaches. But it doesn't work in many other cultures, and since lots of the FB members are not used to French culture, I think that this point of view would be a big mistake.
Like I said, most of the people who could take offense and leave is small enough so they don't have to care. You're a prime example of that, unfortunately: you don't like it, but can do nothing about it. Lying about program improvement is practiced at each devaluation (and I was thinking of Starwood, Marriot, Hilton, 3 American chains). They also think they can get away with it and maintain profit this way.
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And even if I were enlightened enough not to get upset about it, then still many other people would.
By all means, spread the word. FB's bet is that many people either won't care or won't realize the change anytime soon.
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Such things are not good for business. I don't see how that would empower them.
It gives them the power to cause stress to you, which is something I try not to let any business do to me. YMMV.
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Any FB frequent flyer who checks their miles credit in the future will see 50% and 75% where they are used to 100%. Any FB frequent flyer who has booked a J award ticket in the past will see their miles have devaluated.
Most flyers won't check their account regularly. I think most people in my company could tell how many miles they have in their account, or how many they are supposed to get after a flight. Half of them won't know what their status level is... That's depressing, but I am sure they outnumber us by many to one. Same for the J award. Most won't redeem more than one award every couple year, and won't remember how much it costs.
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Will it make them less upset than us, who have found out before them? No!
In the end people will notice.
Maybe, maybe they'll have forgotten it used to be different. That's certainly the point of FB's spin regarding the changes.
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Wether it is presented as an enhancement or not. In the end it will be experienced as an insult, a rip-off or something else along the lines. And maybe a few say "C'est la vie" when they are treated like that. But many more don't.
I fear your number are off. I am pretty sure that the general awareness level about FFP benefits is much smaller than what you think it is. That's why I took some time to explain the changes around me, to make sure everyone understands how the change will affect them. Especially those who are actually free to choose their carrier.
Quote:
This type of short term vision management is becoming very impopular these days.
This type of sort term vision management is the result of top exec being assigned very short term objectives and linking their bonus to these short term objectives. I am not sure capitalism will evolve for the best in that domain.
I have been reading this forum for a long time and this is my first post. I thought maybe I could get some good advice to find an alternative to Flying screw.
I have been FB Gold for 3 years now, flying for business reasons but mostly in economy from NRT to France or Germany (STR). Like most people, I am very upset by the rule change and the way it is presented as an improvement !
On top of that, I will move to Germany before this summer, and I will have to fly the same route the other way for business, but in C from now on (yeah, got promoted :-)).
Therefore, I was thinking to quit FB this year when my Gold status expires, burn my 400K miles I have left (which lost 25% of their value for a C award thanks to the new rules) and join *A. My departure airport will be STR therefore I will need to commute in Frankfurt anyway instead of the dirty CDG, but it seems the mileage I can get from a C ticket on LH is 200%, versus the newly discounted 125% for AF.
I know the FB rules quite well, but my knowledge of *A affiliated programs is not very good, and here is my dilemma: I won't be flying enough to get senator status for sure, I will be stuck at FFT (I think my yearly mileage should be around 40-50K/year, maybe up to 60K). So I was thinking maybe BMI would be more advantageous since I might be able to get to Gold which I guess is better than FFT.
Do miles expire expire on BMI ? I also heard BMI might status match me. Is there any disadvantage for being BMI and flying mainly LH or ANA ?
Take a look at AC if you're moving to Star. 35,000 in a year for Gold is one of the lowest around. With 100% miles and status miles on most economy fares, it's still a very good program... and you don't need to fly AC (at all!) to make status.
With regards to FB's changes this year, even giving the general trend for airlines to take away from their FFPs, it's a shocking devaluation.
Personally, I'm not affected that much, as I generally only use AF/KL for long-haul business class tickets out of MAN, so apart from getting slightly less miles and having to redeem more, things aren't too different.
However, many friends of mine are Gold / Plat earned almost exclusively from flying economy, usually on very low fares. With many of their flights now earning 50% or even 25%, many of them won't requalify.
This problem has existed for years and will only be intensified now.
When many of the KL metal TATL flights were replaced with NW metal, operational upgrades for Royal Wing/Platinum Elite FBs almost completely dried up as op-ups were reserved for NW WP members despite FB being WP for Europe...Now DL plays program devaluation game by making it very easy to make Elite Plus and be showerd with lots of miles but more expensive to redeem awards while FB makes it difficult to make Elite Plus, AND difficult and expensive to earn miles, AND dramatically more expensive to redeem awards including cash fees that make many award tickets have a negative value compared to purchase tickets.
Take a look at AC if you're moving to Star. 35,000 in a year for Gold is one of the lowest around. With 100% miles and status miles on most economy fares, it's still a very good program... and you don't need to fly AC (at all!) to make status.
With regards to FB's changes this year, even giving the general trend for airlines to take away from their FFPs, it's a shocking devaluation.
Personally, I'm not affected that much, as I generally only use AF/KL for long-haul business class tickets out of MAN, so apart from getting slightly less miles and having to redeem more, things aren't too different.
However, many friends of mine are Gold / Plat earned almost exclusively from flying economy, usually on very low fares. With many of their flights now earning 50% or even 25%, many of them won't requalify.
I predict wholesale defections to Star.
Thanks a lot for all your good advice ! I beg your pardon for my lack of knowledge, but by AC do you mean Asiana Club ? It seems the threshold is 40000 miles/24 months and miles expire after 7 years.
I am exactly in your friends case, and although I should be flying C from this year, the 125% earning and 160.000 redeem for an Asia Round trip really makes FB not attractive. I am also hesitating to stay ST and move to WP, but nobody knows how long it will take until WP also devaluates like FB, I guess it is just a matter of time.
No, membership miles (that is the ones you actually spend on awards) do not expire in bmi's Diamond Club. There are lots of reports (see the Diamond Club forum) on status matches, but if you don't get one, you will need to read the Sticky there on how to reach Gold. DC is not like FB in that you have an individual membership year in which you try to earn miles to improve or keep your status. This year is reset each time you go up a level, though any excess status miles are carried forward until you reach the top.
Both earning and redemptions levels are very generous (most Business Class fares earn 200%, but Business Class redemption are only 150% of Economy ones) and for everything except LH F, you can even pay a fairly small cash amount and use half the required number of miles. This way an First Class return to North America comes in at 50,000 miles plus £340 (plus taxes).
There is no disadvantage in being in DC but flying mostly other Star Alliance airlines. But be aware that now that LH owns most of bmi, people on the DC board are wondering if we will end up in M and M one day in the not too distant future.
Thank you for the reply, BMI looks like a very option. The only danger is indeed LH phagocyting BMI. The possibility to pay a small amount of cash to get a 50% award is very interesting. With flying screw you need to pay surcharges and tax anyway...
I am also hesitating to stay ST and move to WP, but nobody knows how long it will take until WP also devaluates like FB
AC would be Air Canada. While their *G threshold is indeed low, I find BMI's combination of benefits (elite threshold, redemption levels, earnings, not to mention the best-in-the-industry 1,700 miles/rental from Hertz and 1,000/night from Hilton), to be the most attractive in Star, while it lasts.
In fact, BMI's FFP reminds me a lot of the clumsy, yet plucky and likable underdog that was Flying Dutchman
As for Worldperks, it will be integrated into Delta's freshly devaluated FFP (base level awards are very hard to get, many require 2x the miles) later this year, so 'moving to WP' would probably only be attractive in the short term, to burn up amassed mileage while avoiding the ludicrous FB taxes.
Personally, I am abandoning any idea of accruing usable amounts of miles or status in FB, and will burn my remaining miles either before 4/1, and later on promo awards if available or on Europe-North America C awards.
Out of my GVA home base, AF is competing with Easy Jet on a few direct routes, uncompetitive with LX for most of Europe due to CDG/AMS taxes (with both offering essentially negligible miles on low fares), and out of the running on longer routes due to the new FB. The disappearance of loopholes such as AZ and CO essentially makes redemptions unattainable flying in discount classes.
Past the initial disappointment, I just consider this another cycle in the search for the best FFP of the moment: time to jump ship. For me, over the past 15 years, those have been KE's Skypass, SR's Qualiflyer, KL's Flying Dutchman, and BMI's Diamond Club. Who knows what will come after BMI is integrated into LH? At best a 2 year respite as a M&M Senator, while looking for greener pastures.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monahos
Past the initial disappointment, I just consider this another cycle in the search for the best FFP of the moment: time to jump ship. For me, over the past 15 years, those have been KE's Skypass, SR's Qualiflyer, KL's Flying Dutchman, and BMI's Diamond Club. Who knows what will come after BMI is integrated into LH? At best a 2 year respite as a M&M Senator, while looking for greener pastures.
Ah yes, qualiflyer was my old time favourite! And I agree, if you fly enough to accrue more than you spend (my case) and think of the benefits of FFPs as status (being treated better when problems occur, lounge access, etc) and occasional awards, there is no reason to not change loyalty programmes when yours become significantly devalued, and even more so, obviously, with status matches.
At one point, AF/KL will have to realise that many things in life work on a basis of reciprocity. Right now, they expect their passengers to show loyalty to them as they prepare to cross at least months if not years of some more troublesome water without, themselves, feeling any form of loyalty whatsoever towards their passengers.
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