I spoke for 30min on the phone to the AFKL marketing division and flying blue.
they will continue to read this thread and within the next 3 or 4 days, I will be able to post an official statement as well as answers to some of your questions here in this forum. if you have specific questions you want to be answered ... don't hesitate to pm me. ... just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.
Thanks chrissxb, that was fast.
Questions:
- Could you confirm these changes are driven by the current slowdown of world economy (no discussion about whether or not it's the right response, I just want to have confirmation that such dramatic changes would not have happened had the world growth kept steady).
- Is a drop in the number of E/E+ members expected with those changes? If so, is there an initiative to increase the level of service those members get (even if it's just reminding the staff of the meaning of the various status)?
- Could you confirm a trip booked in V before 1/4/9 for travel after 1/4/9 will not be rewarded with 100% of the mileage flown. What if the customer purposedly chose V over L, can he revert back to L? What if L is no longer available? I think that these questions have sense, since there is no other difference between L and V AFAIK (restrictions are the same).
- Could you confirm that award trips booked before 1/4/9 for travel after 1/4/9 will be charged the current amount of miles, no the one to be instated on 1/4/9?
- Could you confirm the segment tresholds are unchanged?
- Not really related to FB, but I'm also very interested in the answer to Falco's question about the P onboard product... I also would like to know if J on the 388 is going to be be horizontal (and I mean the horizontality that's horizontal, not the one that's almost horizontal ).
- Could you confirm these changes are driven by the current slowdown of world economy (no discussion about whether or not it's the right response, I just want to have confirmation that such dramatic changes would not have happened had the world growth kept steady).
That may be the excuse now, but these kind of changes were being planned before the economic slowdown became the talk of the world.
__________________
This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
I spoke for 30min on the phone to the AFKL marketing division and flying blue.
they will continue to read this thread and within the next 3 or 4 days, I will be able to post an official statement as well as answers to some of your questions here in this forum. if you have specific questions you want to be answered ... don't hesitate to pm me. ... just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.
Dear Chris,
First of all, thank you very much for this information.
I understand that they addressed the problem before, and I understand a part of their point of view, being myself a FT on domestic (and awfully expensive) flights (for instance a TLS/SXB is more than 600€, not sure, and redeems only 2000 + 2000 miles !).
Could you ask them :
- what will be the pattern of other carriers, which have at the present time more "généreux par nature" programmes (I mean SU or CO or AZ) ?
- what sort of advantages about seating will Plat passengers really get ?
- what about trip starting before and finishing after Apr 1st, already booked ?
En français, que je maîtrise un peu mieux :
- quelle sera la règle de gains pour les autres compagnies membres qui, à l'heure actuelle, accordent 100 % de miles (SU, CO, AZ) ?
- qu'envisagez-vous, de façon concrète, pour améliorer la situation des voyageurs Plat voyageant en Eco ? je ne vois pas en effet, pour les réservations que j'ai faites, très bien en quoi les sièges que je peux retenir à l'avance sont fabuleux. Des mesures du type "assurance de ne pas avoir de voisin si on est en couloir lorsque l'avion n'est pas plein", assurance qui ne coûte dans le cas d'espèce rien au transporteur, sont-elles envisageables ?
- enfin, pour les voyages dont le billet est déjà émis et qui comportent un aller avant le 1/4 et un retour après, quelle est la règle ?
- Is a drop in the number of E/E+ members expected with those changes? If so, is there an initiative to increase the level of service those members get (even if it's just reminding the staff of the meaning of the various status)?
Thanks a lot!
I guess that if there was really an initiative to increase the level of service to the remaining E/E+ after this dramatic upheaval in the mileage programme, that would have been trumpeted vociferously by FB by now.
It strikes me that this comes just after the tremendous investment to build the new Crown Lounge in Amsterdam. That one is certainly going to look very empty in a few months' time.
I spoke for 30min on the phone to the AFKL marketing division and flying blue.
. if you have specific questions you want to be answered ... don't hesitate to pm me. ... just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.
Thanks for this initiative.
However, for me this is now far beyond questions and in particular explanations from their side. Will I earn less? yes. Will I have to pay more? yes. Will you treat me better as a LTPE? not really.
They will have had a look at their numbers, and come to the conclusion that they will be better off. I look at the numbers and see that I will be often better off without them. If it is cheaper/better for me to fly AFKL I will do so, if not, not. No more additional cost of European N being more expensive than BA, or paying extra for E to get full mileage. The problem for AFKL is that they surely looked at the past, and I now make decisions for my future travel, ie they might well have miscalculated their savings.
After cooling down over the weekend: thanks to AFKL for helping me in this decision: so my question: how did you know that I needed a push? Answer: because we are generous by nature.
This year I am supposed to reach Plat Lifetime, I asking myself now why I was pushing so hard to get this status with doing milage runs etc. ...! That's really bullsh... what they are doing is for sure not customer orientated and never an "improvement"!
Since the change from Frequence Plus to Flying Blue they shocked us every year with their "changes & improvements".
I am really scared what will ne the next one...
I've done my lifetimer some month ago. Believe me, I'm happy with this. Because now it is the time, when I do not have to push so hard to get requalified again.
I came to KL/NW because of their good economy prices and the general 100 % mileage rule. When this was changed I already had moved from the main cabin to WBC. There too KL/NW/AF had quite good prices and the 150 % only ( compared to other carrier, who give you 200 % in Business, whatever fare you pay ) had been compensated by the 125 % / later 100 % Plat Bonus.
Right now I have my lifetimer and just at this moment they change everything again. Time to rethink.
Might be out of Germany I'm going closer to OneWorld. They have some quite reasonable TATL Business fares ( even better than Sky ).
Or I change my departure location. Do you know, that you still get 150 % with Delta? Whatever fare base you travel? Out of LHR DL flies for EUR 1240 all incl. to IAD. That's half of the AF price out of Germany. Connecting flights are available for very small money.
Or fly Northwest. Still 150 % too.
Or fly anything else ....
The ricing prices for Awards and the lower miles for Z-fares ( AF/KL Metal only ) will be the reason for me to avoid their metal in the future.
Especially the 125 % rule will be cut off again. It will be a quite bad deal for FB, because they have to credit the full 150% miles for people moving more and more to other airlines within the alliance. And AF's First? Will disappear. They make it more expensive but never improve the quality.
Made a F-Award booking right now and are happy that only a small part of my miles disappeared
Once more, it's nice to be lifetimer, because it gives you the freedom to react on their "improvements" in the right way.
[*]FB announces that awards in P will be a privilege for Elite members only. Anyway how many Ivory members would have been able to afford 400,000 miles for 2 tickets to the US in P? So is it really a privilege for Elites?
It could be former frequent flyers sitting on a huge stash of miles, and slowly spending them (retirees?) on P award for holidays. They'll have to settle for J since they're back to Ivory. I am sure there is at least 3 former customers in that case, and it was paramount to remove them from the P cabin.
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Hi Chris,
as you can speak with somebody at FB who has some responsibility, I'd like to know what are they going to do with the fuel surcharges for award tickets? Will we have the situation with award ticket's taxes costing a bit more than a paid ticket?
Just to let them know we are not fools, whatever they say I will not fly a revenue flight with AF anymore.
Hi Chris,
as you can speak with somebody at FB who has some responsibility, I'd like to know what are they going to do with the fuel surcharges for award tickets? Will we have the situation with award ticket's taxes costing a bit more than a paid ticket?
The problem was mentionned at the last meeting (if I might chime in). They don't see any problem because paid ticket is priced according to the fare posted by the competition, and they sometime have to lower their price to be competitive. So it's apparently bound to stay.
*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mennix
Once more, it's nice to be lifetimer, because it gives you the freedom to react on their "improvements" in the right way.
If AF/KL wanted to free itself from any obligation to lifetime members, that would be as easy as terminating FB and beginning a new program. Perhaps it could be called Flying Ultimate, or FU for short.
The market share of Skyteam in Finland is just 3-4 % with a very limited number of destinations and flights. Oneworld is obviously the main alliance here followed by *A. With a very bad coverage the only thing that Skyteam could compete with was either low prices or a good FF programme. The latter was provided by FB (although FD was better). Unfortunately, after these enhancements I see no future with FB. I could invest some money in EuroSelect and Businessclass in order to achieve more miles. However, EuroSelect with middle seat always occupied is a waste of money. Finnair Plus is not the best FF programme but one of the better features are cheap upgrades which are almost always available even with the cheapest fares. FB will no longer offer any benefit at all. I have had the pleasure of being FB gold for several years but I rather give up than pay for extraorbitant fares to get minimum advantages compared to other airlines. I will continue flying with AF and KL in oder to use my miles and once or twice a year I have to fly fly with OK in order to keep my account active.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissxb
just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.
That, they do not know any more than we do. The history of the airline industry is full of changes that were guaranteed to happen regardless of passengers' reactions but had to be abandoned after a few months because their cost proved higher than their benefit or because negative publicity and image deterioration proved too much to handle. Examples include the discontinuation of free food and drink on Swiss, changes to the US Air FF programme, or indeed the replacement of hot meals by cold ones on long haul flights on AF in the 1980s. How many very to extremely frequent flyers are they willing to use on their idiotic plan?
There is such a thing as collective action, there is such a thing as voting with one's feet, and there is such a thing as joining our forces to explain how much we disaprove of the changes proposed.
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We here at FT may agree that a particular program change is ill-advised (translation: stupid), but I have seen time and again that the managers operating the program honestly believe that the change will benefit their company in both the short and the long run. Just as the program's managers do not have a complete picture, neither do we.
FF program managers tend to disregard the value of long-term loyalty (and its opposite, long-term animosity) because this is not easily measured. FF program members like us tend to disregard revenue concerns, mistakenly assuming that our repeated use of an airline is automatically profitable for the airline. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not, especially if we are really good at milking the FF program.
Both perspectives are needed. FF program managers really ought to include FTers in their focus groups before announcing major overhauls like this one. Southwest Airlines, one of the better managed airlines, is planning a major overhaul of Rapid Rewards late this year and has not asked for feedback on FT, either publicly or privately AFAIK. Everybody, managers and FTers alike, thinks they know it all.
Voting with your purchases is the only thing most FF program managers (and more critically, their corporate bosses) understand.
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