The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! [merged]

[albireo]

Originally Posted by Gate45

The new booking class structure will be as follows:

PF JCDIZM*O* YBKHTVR*LQNX*UG

Is M going to be the bucket for "extended availability" Elite rewards in Business ? Will that be valid for all markets ?

The coach reward availability is going to be very thin, indeed. And introducing as an "enhancement" a reduced availability for Elites, at a 15% premium, is one more proof of the zealotery of AF's Ministry of Truth. These are the same people who do not honor their written promises to rescind fuel surcharges, anyway.

[brunos]

Originally Posted by chrissxb

I sent a link of this thread to my contacts in AF HQ.
they're all reading it now and I will get an official
answer from marketing devision and flying blue
to post here in the thread.

Thanks chrssxb. As suggested by other posters, I think that we should all send a short letter (snail mail carries probably more weight than emails) to both FB and AF or KL. My family have just sent theirs. Some argumented dossier for the media would also be usefull. Might carry a comparison with other FFP and the impact of the changes that took place since Jan 1, 2008. But that's a lot of work, very time consuming for any individual. Of course, it is easy to attack the misleading marketing propaganda used by AFKL on this occasion.

[GVA]

Originally Posted by UTA_flyinghigh

I won't paraphrase the many interesting points in this thread, but I'd like to know a few things :

1) What becomes of DL/OK/AZ/SU/UXetc... earnings ?
2) Shall segment requalification stay the same ?
3) Are there any airlines which will do a intra-ST status match ?

Thanks

UTA

Northwest matches up to Platinum or you can transfer your miles entirely.

Delta matches to gold. Continental should match to platinum.

An interesting note for those interested in CO, is that you do not need to necessarily qualify on EQM if you live in Europe. A specific number of transatlantic flights is acceptable - obviously something to research on the CO forum.

[ranskis]

Originally Posted by KL803

Maybe they reconsider…? I don't think so, they can't step back without losing their face. Nevertheless, I'm very interested in their official answer.

Actually, they should make a bit more difference than now based on the fare paid... but still keep FB attractive and as an incentive that brings something after a few flights, and not a free trip after 50 similar return trips (=2% incentive...)

Flights should always give at least 50% of mileage, like in Finnair or Lufthansa. Under 50%, you need too many flights to get an award => the FFP is not a key decision factor nor a tool for anything and it looses its purpose.

There should not be too many levels, the current 75% and 150% levels with one booking class are ridiculous and makes it more difficult to understand and to promote.

Therefore, a better approach could be:
- P F = 300%
- J C D I Z = 150%
- Y B = 125% (to prepare for premium economy...)
- K H T = 100%
- V L Q N = 50%

Different levels in business class makes it not readable and too much "marchand de tapis", especially when many european competitors give 200% in all classes in business. 150% is the median and it rewards more loyal travellers (with the elite bonus). I don't think that giving 16% miles more for some business classes is appealing nor make a difference. All should be at the same level.

Having a little extra bonus for Y B fares (that cost the same as Z fares most of the time) would make travellers feel they have not been screwed too much by the rules/yield management when they bought these tickets, it is like a small consolation. It can also prefigure the introduction of premium economy at this level.

For European flights, I would suggest this:

- C D Z Y S B = 200%
- K R M Q U H = 100%
- W A E N = 50%

Since Y S B fares are close to business fare and much higher than the rest, and that they are in a separate cabin. N should get 50% for the reasons detailed above. Reducing W A E is acceptable but to a 50% minimum, it can therefore compensate for the increase in N.

And to cut down on miles given, Elite bonuses could be 25/50/75%, still above many competitors. Elite levels would thus remain attractive, balanced with the above "enhanced earning chart".

All in all, it would not be that far from the expected "miles given" with the official new chart but it would keep the FFP as a key and relevant incentive and marketing tool for most travellers, it would make it competitive with most other programs. Since the goal of the program is more to increase market share and attractivity to bring up additional revenue at a low cost, rather than speculating on miles value and trading.

[blairvanhorn]

Originally Posted by ranskis

Therefore, a better approach could be:
- P F = 300%
- J C D I Z = 150%
- Y B = 125% (to prepare for premium economy...)
- K H T = 100%
- V L Q N = 50%

Agree 100%.

Originally Posted by ranskis

Different levels in business class makes it not readable and too much "marchand de tapis", especially when many european competitors give 200% in all classes in business. 150% is the median and it rewards more loyal travellers (with the elite bonus). I don't think that giving 16% miles more for some business classes is appealing nor make a difference. All should be at the same level.

Exactly.

[chrissxb]

I spoke for 30min on the phone to the AFKL marketing division and flying blue.

they will continue to read this thread and within the next 3 or 4 days, I will be able to post an official statement as well as answers to some of your questions here in this forum. if you have specific questions you want to be answered ... don't hesitate to pm me. ... just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.

[goavibes]

Since FB likes to brag it remains one of the most rewarding FFP, let’s compare what it’s of interest to my personal case (sorry), JAL Mileage Bank vs FB :

Discount JAL economy tickets give you 70% mileage (except tour one’s that bank only 50%).
Discount AF economy ticket will get you 50% or more likely 25%.

Elite Bonus :
FB Silver 50% -->JMB Crystal 50%
FB Gold 75% --> JMB Sapphire 100%
FB Pt 100% --> JMB Diamond 120%

What I find most amazing is the difference in miles required for awards tickets (Asia-Europe):
FB First RT (if elite) 400.000 --> JMB First RT : 120.000 miles
FB Business RT 160.000 --> JMB Business RT : 85.000 miles
FB Eco RT 80.000 --> JMB Eco RT : 55.000 miles

And the in-flight services on JAL in Business are far better that what AF provides.

Oh, and on April 1st last year, JAL actually EXTENDED the validity of miles from 12 months to 36 months. The complete opposite of FB’s course.

For me that’s a no brainer. After April 1st, all my personal Japan-Europe flights will be with JAL.

[blairvanhorn]

Originally Posted by chrissxb

just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.

Well, that's pretty much what I expected from AF/FB. That's certainly not what I call a commercial dialogue or taking into consideration what your clients may think or desire (this would have happened before the announced changes, obviously) ... So what's the point?

Did anyone here ever participate in any kind of formal focus group type activity on this specific topic with AF and/or FB?

[chrissxb]

Originally Posted by blairvanhorn

Did anyone here ever participate in any kind of formal focus group type activity on this specific topic with AF and/or FB?

yes. for about three years now.

[blairvanhorn]

Originally Posted by chrissxb

yes. for about three years now.

Wow .. and this is the end result?

[TGV]

Originally Posted by chrissxb

We can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.

No problem, we are leaving !

They may also read the other thread:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/flyin...ving-when.html

[Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM]

thanks, chrissxb, what would we do without your help?

[leonardoBR]

Are there any economists working for FB? This change borders on the pathetic.

It will provoke mass exodus of Frequent Flyers by:

1) reducing the number of business travellers. During credit crunch times, business travellers will seek the cheapest business fares. Upon realising that the cheapest business fares of KLM-Air France will now only give 125% airmiles, they will immediately look elsewhere.

2) reducing the number of long-haul frequent leisure travellers. Frequent leisure travellers on long-haul flights are increasing year after year. Clearly no one is going to be prepared to pay a small fortune (economy class B or S, the only ones giving 100% of miles now) for an economy ticket on a route that is done several times a year. This will halve the chances of most GE and PE FB members renewing their status. That means no lounge access and therefore they will look elsewhere. With Lufhansa it is possible to get lounge access with only 30,000 miles. Now, I even think that achieving 30,000 miles with LH may become easier than achieving 30,000 miles with KLM/AF, with the extra advantage that with the latter there is no lounge access.

3)reducing the number of short-haul frequent leisure flyers. Short-haul frequent flyers will now be completely priced out of any real status and will therefore just seek the cheapest deals elsewhere from now on, which are clearly with the budget airlines.

In other words, they probably feel they have too many frequent flyers and want to get rid of them. Fair enough. The problem will be to get them back, in particular with the fast changes that have and will be taking place in aviation.

[Gnopps]

Originally Posted by chrissxb

I spoke for 30min on the phone to the AFKL marketing division and flying blue.

they will continue to read this thread and within the next 3 or 4 days, I will be able to post an official statement as well as answers to some of your questions here in this forum. if you have specific questions you want to be answered ... don't hesitate to pm me. ... just one thing ... these changes will happen. and there's nothing we can do about it. we can complain, they will listen to us, explain why they did it - but certainly not take it back.

Thank you for this chrissxb. But of course they will say the changes will not be reverted and it may be true, but for sure this is never written in stone: Remember the campaign the Delta frequent flyers launched when Delta announced major changes for their program, they managed to convince Delta otherwise: www.saveskymiles.com!

[TGV]

And for the FB staff who can not read English they can go to:
http://voyageforum.com/voyage/air_fr...mois_D2074159/

and

http://voyageforum.com/voyage/air_fr...2009_D2283429/

French speaking people are equally pleased by the changes !