When it all comes down to it,FB mileage was pretty worthless anyway.
must be true, otherwise I would not have so many miles now. WebAwards were nice, but I only used my miles for one-ways in Europe, but now BA offers them as well for paid tickets (of course AFKL not), apart of course from the LCCs.
Wow, I am really amazed how FB tear their own programme apart by doing this. I will certainly leave FB and ST (the alliance are falling apart anyway), and go over to *A.
I am flying a lot between Oslo and Beirut, Damascus and Amman. When looking for fares AF and OK always come up as more expensive than BMI and TK, but still I stick to ST, because I want to earn my miles and be loyal to FB. But as of the new rules, I will have to pay double of the TK price in order to get 100% milage. The AFKL prices are hilarious! Let's say I can fly TK and earn 100% on any *A programme for about 650EUR in coach. With the new rules I must pay 1400EUR for a similar flight on AF in order to get 100% milage credit. It's totally....well, I don't have words. The cheapest business class ticket would set me back almost 1800EUR, still I would earn only 125% miles on the CDG-AMM segment. Why pay 1800EUR to "enjoy" the trashy AFKL service to Middle East. It's nothing more than a cheap economy plus configuration.
If I am going to earn 25% milage when flying SU, OK and CO in addition to all the other horrible changes, then ST is totally useless for me. I can get elite status from *A both by flying less, and paying much less. There are no reasons for me to stick with FB, so that's why I am leaving.
I also read in the new program rules that a a classic award in business class requires twice the amount of award miles of a classic award in economy. Does this mean that from now on business class award tickets will cost 40000 miles one way (a one way economy class award ticket cost 20000 miles), instead of the current 30000 miles on way??? I have till now "paid" 30000 miles to fly from Oslo - Tehran one way, Oslo - Beirut one way. Will this increase to 40000 miles one way??
Well, I am astonished that FB are trying to implement that they are doing all this to help us - they are only changing the program to provide us with a better and more fair program. Well, it is definately better for AFKL and FB, but not for us! Can't they just be honest and say that they want more money and revenue and that they don't care about their loyal flyers?
Does anyone have any experience changing from FB and trying to get a status match from a FFP in *A?
Programs: AF/FB outta the door Plat, NW Plat, bmi DC Gold, BA EC Gold, HHonors Diamond, SPG Plat
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klm is Dead - Long Live KLM
I suggest everyone -- particularly those of us who live in Western Europe and NL and France in particular -- act as negative ambassadors and spread the word as far as possible and as quickly as possible that FB and AFKL should be abandoned so that the group feels more pain more quickly and more deeply.
For example,
- tell as many colleagues, family, friends and acquaintances as you can how AFKL has lost their way and no longer deserves our business, tell them your real horror stories (which we all have) from the last couple of years and explain how your flying has improved after moving to ...;
- remove flying rights on AFKL for members of your company, subsidiary or division;
- write an opinion piece for your local newspaper or financial/business publication holding up FB, AFKL as an example of a company that has lost its way, demonstrating pitifully what not to do to their best customers in a business turndown and encouraging people to fly their competition;
- send complaint letters to the competition authorities holding up the decline in product and service quality, reneging of promises and abuse of market power as reasons for their competitive behavior to be investigated
- send complaint letters to the consumer and advertising authorities complaining about their bait and switch marketing techniques on miles earning which are retroactively not honored by new program terms;
- type reviews on airlinequality announcing the coming consumer-unfriendly changes which combined with abominable decreases in product and service quality and uncompetitive prices make AFKL no longer even a two star option
- step into at least two local travel agencies to investigate vacations. make sure you discuss with at least two staff your displeasure with FB and how AFKL have lost their way. Tell them how many years you have been loyal, how you see them abandoning you and warn them that if they book people FBers on AFKL that they will likely have to deal with some very disappointed people this next year who will learn they have been screwed on miles -- encourage them to warn people in advance and to consider better options to AFKL;
My ex-employer (with whom I still have very regular contacts) in GVA had a blanket travel policy whereby you could fly any airline if they were within 15% of the cheapest available option. As a company of 75000 people we always had people flying in and out on C or F fares and most people are Platinum on FB. For most people, they decided to become plat on FB because they could earn full miles when flying in Y for vacation or other trips. Next time I do meet up I will be telling everyone in that company and others around about the changes and what they mean.
GVA is by all means a small town, where everyone in their respective industry knows each other and word of this will spread quickly (after all, it is one of the few remaining perks out there for flying). I have no doubt that once this does go through town, AF/KL will have emptier flights upfront from GVA as a result of this.
Maybe FB's policy is to push everyone towards LH or BA? In which case they are doing a very good job and I expect both those airlines to be very happy at the prospect of having disillusioned FB flyers flock to them in numbers.
I suggest everyone -- particularly those of us who live in Western Europe and NL and France in particular -- act as negative ambassadors and spread the word as far as possible and as quickly as possible
First, I e-mailed my LTPE brother-in-law, who ironically was en route from PTY in C when the news broke. Next, I wrote to my travel agents, and just now I e-mailed luchtvaartnieuws.nl.
Programs: BD *G, NW PE (back home :)), FD RW (no more), HH Gold, MR Gold, some Amex
Posts: 7,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
It's going to filter through to DL-NW -- as the collusion allowed to AF-KL-DL-NW just helps the "harmonization" along faster and more extensively -- making it a matter more of timing than "if" as long as AF-KL can manage to stick with this.
but DL has a lot more competition from UA, CO, AA and others, so they are maybe not in a position to pull this through (I don't think AF-KL is in such a position either).
What puzzles me is the fact that the proposed changes make FB the worst program in the industry by a long shot, why are they doing this, they are either insane or have no clue how fast loyalty can fall apart.
Programs: BD *G, NW PE (back home :)), FD RW (no more), HH Gold, MR Gold, some Amex
Posts: 7,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GVA
My ex-employer (with whom I still have very regular contacts) in GVA had a blanket travel policy whereby you could fly any airline if they were within 15% of the cheapest available option. As a company of 75000 people we always had people flying in and out on C or F fares and most people are Platinum on FB. For most people, they decided to become plat on FB because they could earn full miles when flying in Y for vacation or other trips. Next time I do meet up I will be telling everyone in that company and others around about the changes and what they mean.
GVA is by all means a small town, where everyone in their respective industry knows each other and word of this will spread quickly (after all, it is one of the few remaining perks out there for flying). I have no doubt that once this does go through town, AF/KL will have emptier flights upfront from GVA as a result of this.
Maybe FB's policy is to push everyone towards LH or BA? In which case they are doing a very good job and I expect both those airlines to be very happy at the prospect of having disillusioned FB flyers flock to them in numbers.
Exactly,
we actually added AF to our preferred airlines last year and people were excited to have another nice option for trips US-EU. Most people in my company know I fly quite a bit and I will leave nothing undone to convince each and everyone of my co-workers to drop FB and AF-KL ... won't be a very tough thing, given compelling data FB just put out.
FB, I know you are reading this thread, don't expect numbers to drop right away, but people made concrete plans to leave and got a PE comp @ another program ... they are gone for good. There is still time to fix this!
but DL has a lot more competition from UA, CO, AA and others, so they are maybe not in a position to pull this through (I don't think AF-KL is in such a position either).
What puzzles me is the fact that the proposed changes make FB the worst program in the industry by a long shot, why are they doing this, they are either insane or have no clue how fast loyalty can fall apart.
When it comes to the others in the industry in the US, DL management doesn't care much at all. With its government-approved size and government-approved allowance to act like a cartel with AF-KL, DL's management seems to think that it can get away with being the worst frequent flyer program of the US majors when it comes to earning award tickets and still thrive. AF-KL management is infected by the same disease of arrogance as DL-NW.
AF-KL-DL-NW are clearly of the opinion that generally most:
1. economy class cabin passengers either shouldn't (or don't need to) be won over or retained by a good frequent flyer program providing award tickets; and
2. premium cabin passengers aren't going to bolt for better grounds on the basis of frequent flyer program devaluation.
The result of this will be that the airline group will loose what little pricing power premium it gets from customers choosing to go with or stick to a brand because of the "loyalty" program and the firm will have to compete ever more on price as it commoditizes itself ever further. Foolish and short-sighted, but that's a description of airline management for you.
__________________
This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
Programs: CSA OK+ Gold, BMI DC Gold, LH SEN, SAS EBS
Posts: 2,879
Logic?
What I don't understand is the reason behind these changes, what is the management thinking?
Are there too many elites? Then raise the elite thresholds, you can easily adjust for the number of elites you want to have. Or make say, silver easy and without many benefits while the higher levels are much harder but the more rewarding.
Are too many award trips redeemed? Revenue management can easily adjust the number of award seats available.
Too many miles stockpiled? Find flights that are pretty empty and release more seats for them, it doesn't cost the airline much to do so. As an incentive launch a campaign like "book AMS-MIA in march a get free entrance to the lounge or excess baggage" or make the companion award 50% off, something like that.
Are the fares not paying for the miles? Then you need to re-evaluate if you are even fit to have a loyalty program. The whole point of a loyalty program is to generate more business. Thus if you lower the percentages there is no incentive to fly anymore => just scrap the loyalty program all together and save the costs associated with it (though doesn't the frequent flyer programs usually make a profit?)
These coming changes are ridiculous. I'm afraid they might spread to other programs as well (airlines have been know to copy bad ideas) so let's do what we can to stop them! Many good suggestions already, I have started with a mail to FB.
AF-KL-DL-NW are clearly of the opinion that generally most:
1. economy class cabin passengers either shouldn't (or don't need to) be won over or retained by a good frequent flyer program providing award tickets; and
They seem to think, in my opinion, that the category above is totally disconnected from the latter...
They must think that providing benefits for people flying only on cheaper fares is a waste, because they select flights based on price only, so they only waste benefits on them (even if it's slow, they'll eventually get a "free" ticket, and they can cost a lot by drinking Pepsi...) It might be true.
But the cost-conscious traveller would take into account the benefits of the program, and select sometimes a higher fare to gain miles. AF and KLM certainly recognized that since their booking engine showed several fares for the same flight, proof that at least some customer needed the functionality. It's no longer necessary, as nobody in his sane mind would pay for B fare to get the increase in miles as a leisure traveller.
Quote:
2. premium cabin passengers aren't going to bolt for better grounds on the basis of frequent flyer program devaluation.
When they are forced by "travel policy" to go to the lower fare available, it's right they won't choose based on FFP... But many companies don't have strict travel policy and allow some leeway to choose based on convenience. As long as they don't get outrageous quotes, people are then free to choose whatever airline best suit them (see GVA's example). And they might select based on schdule convenience and product quality, as well as based on the FFP that will bring them the most bennies when flying for holidays. And there, suddently, FB appears to fall short, as it will give only a few miles on leisure travel, and be extremely stingy with the 33% increase in J and 100% increase in P for award. Good earnings rate don't compensate for the outrageous price required, and they will certainly discover that slowly. Here on Flyertalk, we're quick to react because we actually read the announcements but for most of their customers, the realization will be much slower: they'll need to wait for the time they want to book an award to discover the huge amount of miles required, and take that into account thereafter.
In the short term, they will be able to post financial result showing a decrease of the value of outstanding miles (because redemption will be more expansive, it will translate to less potential ticket as a liability), and little to no decrease in premium fare. It's after some time that they'll lose their edge. As someone pointed above, once someone is gone, it will be difficult to make him change back.
That's why, contrary to many posters here, I don't think it's worth writing them to announce you'll stop flying with them. They won't change anything as the result. These decisions are made after a thorough research and not made randomly based on what some exec thought brillant. And, they'll get "good" very short-term results for their move. And companies, unfortunately, tend to be more and more governed by short-term considerations. Loyalty is built on the long-term, and the lack of effort put by AF and KLM in their FFP will only show on the long term. So, except to vent, I don't think it's worth your time to inform AF of your displeasure.
Just stop flying with them and warn colleagues and friends of the devaluation, so they won't lose the opportunity to switch to another program earlier because of lack of information. After all, I still have colleagues genuinely calling the FFP "Fréquence Plus", so I am sure many are not reading the details. It's when they'll try to redeem they'll discover the program has become worthless. But warning Flying Blue? No way it will change anything. Has any petition campaign in the airline industry ever worked? But feel free to vent, it's always good for stress relief. Don't hold your breath though.
Wow, I am really amazed how FB tear their own programme apart by doing this. I will certainly leave FB and ST (the alliance are falling apart anyway), and go over to *A.
Does anyone have any experience changing from FB and trying to get a status match from a FFP in *A?
BMI DC does status match. Look at info on their board. I have done it a year ago. LH is taking controm of BMI. If they merge BMI DC into LH M&M, it is likely that they will keep status of DC elite in their M&M, as they did for Swiss.
Too many miles stockpiled? Find flights that are pretty empty and release more seats for them, it doesn't cost the airline much to do so. As an incentive launch a campaign like "book AMS-MIA in march a get free entrance to the lounge or excess baggage" or make the companion award 50% off, something like that.
That's the key point, I think. The valuation of outstanding miles is very low in Air France's book. If forced to count award tickets at the opportunity cost, and not the real cost for the company (marginal cost of flying someone in a seat that would otherwise be empty), they'll suddenly get a huge liability. And they want to mitigate that by increasing redemption costs and lowering earnings. BA went the other route of having fire sales to entice people into spending their miles, especially when the load factor are lower than they used to be.. BA's way was customer friendly and smart. AF and KLM's way will antagonize customers as the benefits of the FFP have been greatly reduced.
They seem to think, in my opinion, that the category above is totally disconnected from the latter...
They must think that providing benefits for people flying only on cheaper fares is a waste, because they select flights based on price only, so they only waste benefits on them (even if it's slow, they'll eventually get a "free" ticket, and they can cost a lot by drinking Pepsi...) It might be true.
But the cost-conscious traveller would take into account the benefits of the program, and select sometimes a higher fare to gain miles. AF and KLM certainly recognized that since their booking engine showed several fares for the same flight, proof that at least some customer needed the functionality. It's no longer necessary, as nobody in his sane mind would pay for B fare to get the increase in miles as a leisure traveller.
When they are forced by "travel policy" to go to the lower fare available, it's right they won't choose based on FFP... But many companies don't have strict travel policy and allow some leeway to choose based on convenience. As long as they don't get outrageous quotes, people are then free to choose whatever airline best suit them (see GVA's example). And they might select based on schdule convenience and product quality, as well as based on the FFP that will bring them the most bennies when flying for holidays. And there, suddently, FB appears to fall short, as it will give only a few miles on leisure travel, and be extremely stingy with the 33% increase in J and 100% increase in P for award. Good earnings rate don't compensate for the outrageous price required, and they will certainly discover that slowly. Here on Flyertalk, we're quick to react because we actually read the announcements but for most of their customers, the realization will be much slower: they'll need to wait for the time they want to book an award to discover the huge amount of miles required, and take that into account thereafter.
In the short term, they will be able to post financial result showing a decrease of the value of outstanding miles (because redemption will be more expansive, it will translate to less potential ticket as a liability), and little to no decrease in premium fare. It's after some time that they'll lose their edge. As someone pointed above, once someone is gone, it will be difficult to make him change back.
That's why, contrary to many posters here, I don't think it's worth writing them to announce you'll stop flying with them. They won't change anything as the result. These decisions are made after a thorough research and not made randomly based on what some exec thought brillant. And, they'll get "good" very short-term results for their move. And companies, unfortunately, tend to be more and more governed by short-term considerations. Loyalty is built on the long-term, and the lack of effort put by AF and KLM in their FFP will only show on the long term. So, except to vent, I don't think it's worth your time to inform AF of your displeasure.
Just stop flying with them and warn colleagues and friends of the devaluation, so they won't lose the opportunity to switch to another program earlier because of lack of information. After all, I still have colleagues genuinely calling the FFP "Fréquence Plus", so I am sure many are not reading the details. It's when they'll try to redeem they'll discover the program has become worthless. But warning Flying Blue? No way it will change anything. Has any petition campaign in the airline industry ever worked? But feel free to vent, it's always good for stress relief. Don't hold your breath though.
I agree completely.
The best suggestion is to "spread the word" that AF-KL (and DL-NW) don't want to be spread -- they don't value repeat business and will treat your leisure travel worse than your business travel.
The airlines that treat me best for leisure travel are the ones that tend to get the best of my business travel -- the airlines that treat me worse on my leisure travel tend to lose my business travel.
__________________
This game is not as much fun as it used to be: 2008/2009 Frequent Flyer Program Fleecing Award goes to Delta Airlines
There are two possibilities:
- they want to reduce the miles liability in their accounts
- they want to reduce costs/benefits, incitate to pay more etc.
For the miles liability, the 20 months is a good thing, it can write off a lot of miles at once on april first. But the increase in J and P is just stupid. It means that one would need to keep miles longer on his account to get these awards, meaning that the accounts are fuller and longer in average. Since Y awards carry fuel surcharges and that their availability will be even further reduced to meet more or less the lowest available fares, they will be even less attractive, pushing for burning in J, or keeping the miles until it gets better => bad effect for the balance sheet.
If the driving reason is to reduce costs, to give less free tickets, these changes are rather good. they give away less miles, they give away less seats for a given amount of redeemed miles... that is the way to go. But this damages even more the balance sheet and loyalty perspectives in a long term, pressure on margin/price, competition without enough product differenciation... they win on the miles side but are screwed on their own business development.
All in all, I guess that these measures (except the 20 months rule) will have the opposite effect as the one they are aiming at...
TalkBoard Member/Moderator: Southwest and JetBlue forums
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: California
Programs: WN CP & A-list, Interstate BBQ at MEM B17, CO Lifetime Presidents Club
Posts: 9,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnopps
What I don't understand is the reason behind these changes, what is the management thinking?
(snip)
These coming changes are ridiculous. I'm afraid they might spread to other programs as well (airlines have been know to copy bad ideas) so let's do what we can to stop them! Many good suggestions already, I have started with a mail to FB.
There are some great insights on this thread. Management probably sees a race to devalue FF programs, and they feel comfortable taking the lead.
Like most of the posters here, I don't see the logic. If you're going to have a FF program, it needs to be competitive in order to move market share to your airline. Otherwise it's just throwing money away and you might as well have no program at all. It's really that simple.
Some FTers have given up on FF programs after years of discouraging devaluations. We've all significantly changed our approach to earning and burning miles. FTers were trend leaders before FF programs became popular with the public, and we are likely trend leaders as the public loses interest in these programs. The critical turning point will be when the public no longer cares about 20k mile signup bonuses for credit cards. At that point the airlines will lose the revenue stream that they still believe to be permanent. And the new accounting standards will require the airlines to show a large liability for unredeemed miles.
Perhaps it's time to think the unthinkable: Why not just eliminate the FF programs and be done with it?
![The new rule book is here! The new rule book is here! [merged]](/forum/iconimages/flying-blue-air-france-klm/new-rule-book-here-new-rule-book-here-merged_ltr.gif)
Logic?
