PaulInTheSky

Hi FT AY experts,

Next year, I am planning to get a J tix from YYZ to HKG/SIN through HEL. Knowing the fact that AY allows stopovers both-ways, it seems to make sense to definitely take one especially for me who hasn't been in HEL before. First time to step foot into AY too. I have a few questions regarding the product:

1. HEL-HKG and HKG-HEL look like to be definitely in BusinessLight service? If so, it would be pretty disappointing. (By looking at the feedback to Business Light in FT)

2. I see that the seat seems to be on par with CX/AA 77W J seats correct? I saw a review HEL-SIN J still uses the ex-AF A340 J cabin, which is pretty bad. Would AY ever use that in HEL-HKG route?

http://www.ausbt.com.au/finnair-airb...-kong-helsinki

3. How do IRROPs handling go? Would AY rebook premium cabin passengers to any other airlines if flights are significantly delayed or even canceled?

4. As AA EXP(OneWorld Emerald), I believe I can access Finnair Premium Lounge correct? How is the lounge, compared to CX/JL/BA/QF Lounge? Worse? Without spa/massage, at least there's a sauna to ease the blood circulation a little bit.

When I looked at the review above, at first I thought it would definitely be better than BA J, as I and my fiance love IKEA decoration even at our house. However, hearing most complaints from FTers here, it looks like I shouldn't expect too much from AY? At least the Customer service seems to respond in timely manner, better than BA Customer Service(seemingly).

Any insights would be deeply appreciated.

ffay005

Hi, welcome to the AY board!

1. At least HEL-HKG is, yes. HKG-HEL probably isn't as it's a regular daytime flight to a non-leisure destination.

2. The seats are definitely subpar to AA 77W. If you're on an A330/340, you'll get a relatively good seat (aim for 2A, 4A, 6A, which we call throne seats and which have ample room widthwise). On the A350, AY has crammed too many seats into the space available, resulting in an experience far inferior to other airlines that use the same seat.

No worries about ex-AF A340 though, AY doesn't operate any of those anymore.

3. AY is not very good at sudden IRROPS handling. IRROPS will especially be a concern with the HEL-HKG flight, which they all too often postpone to the following morning when something goes wrong with one of their widebodies. There's plenty of discussion about this on the board. Plan accordingly – you might get into HKG 8 hours late. Should this happen, AY will put J pax in the airport Hilton for the night. (In this case, there is little point in rerouting on other carriers since there are no virtually departures at night, so leaving for HKG on the direct flight at 8 in the morning would still be your best bet).

4. You can access the premium lounge at HEL when leaving for HKG, LHR or North America, ie a destination outside the Schengen zone. Due to AY's wave system, the lounge is very crowded at 4 pm (so crowded there might not be any empty seats), otherwise it's okay. Again, it is not on the same level as the other airlines you mention but quite adequate.

5. I like to call AY "Scandic of the Skies", Scandic being a Nordic hotel chain that claims themselves four-star properties but do everything they can to save a penny here and there, resulting in a concept that offers the very bare minimum they absolutely have to offer, and that's about it. AY is not a lowcost carrier, but especially where premium services are concerned, they do not understand the value of them and rather have a "we must do this because our competitors do it as well, but how could we do it with spenging as little money as possible" way of thinking.

However, AY service is mostly friendly, the safety record is excellent and reliability is, perhaps apart from the HEL-HKG flight, good. Don't expect it to be an Asian carrier, and remember the price you paid for your tickets (probably considerably less than BA or CX) and you'll be fine.

SPBanker

I am less down on A350 seats than many here, but AA's are better. I think catering especially ex-HEL is usually quite good. Also wines are definitely better than BA.

lkrt

It's definitely better than the BA J, even if the ex-AF A340's still existed.

intuition

Everything is better than BA J.


Here is my 2 cents on some of the questions:

1. The meal service on HEL-HKG is dubbed "midnight menu" by Finnair and is advertised as a smaller/lighter menu to maximize sleep. The "business light" is something FT'ers made up to describe the un-announced sub-par experience on some routes that Finnair thinks won't notice it.
But even if the menu might be a light one on HKG flight it is at least according to what is advertised.

You can contact Finnair and get the current menu as a pdf of you want to get a grip of what to expect. (One used to be able to download it from the site, but that function has been broken for awhile)


3. Yes, they can rebook customers on other airlines.
The HKG and the SIN flights are the last two to leave HEL in the day and especially HKG is delay prone. So much that is may even be called "reg-ops" and it works like this: Upon arrival to HEL you are advised AY69 have been delayed 8 hours and you are supposed to go to transfer desk. At the desk there is a long line of other travellers in the same situation and one tired lady handling it. You'll get a piece of paper telling you how to get to a designated hotel in the greater airport area and that is it. Premium customers are supposed to be sent to the airport Hilton, but don't bet on it.
If you have connecting flights they will be rebooked/rerouted, but do not expect to be re-routed on the HEL-HKG or HEL-SIN segment if it is "only" an 8-hour delay.
Lately it seems AY69 is not delayed as much as it used to be. It is delayed as often as before, but it seems they have abandoned the 8h delay solution and are instead flying out as soon as there is an aircraft ready. Last 2 months, the maximum delay has been 150 minutes and 38% of the flights have actually been on time so that is nice.
The SIN flight has much much much better on-time record so if you are worried about this, go with the SIN route.


4. Nowhere near if you are comparing to first class lounges. There is a small sauna, but it is actually also accesible from the regular business class louge, so not that special. The food offerings are, in their own words, "gourmet snacks with warm garnitures". All is buffet served, ie no table dining, no alacarte.
Many people who are not regular AY flyers do seem to find the lounge very nice though, so YMMV and you should make up your own opinion.

Purjelentaja

Actually I wouldn't call service on AY69/70 to/from HKG and AY81/82 to/from SIN BusinessLight, but more like as AY themselves call it Midnight Menu concept, as it is not quite the same as the BusinessLight discussed elewhere, but a quick one tray meal service with 4 different main course options to choose from, plus three pre-order options when departing from HEL. I can kinda understand the logic behind it when departing from HEL at midnight to give possibility to adjust to destination time zone all the way from departure and more time to sleep. But on the way back from HKG or SIN the same logic doesn't work. However, there are customers that would prefer more than just a quick dinner and the concept should allow those customers wanting to have a full 3-course dinner onboard possibility for that, but currently it is not the case. So you are right, it is not full business class service.

On AY61/62 to/from HKG (the flight leaving HEL in the afternoon and HKG in the morning) service should be normal and full business class service.

I have become doubtful of if all the seats are similar on AY A350s, as previously I was quite critical towards them (always on middle seat in forward part of the cabin), but on my recent flight (window seat in aft part of the main cabin) I found it quite comfortable with enough of space, and had a very good sleep. Both HKG and SIN are A350 destinations, there is only one A340 remaining in AY fleet (equipped with full flat seats), and operates mainly (or solely?) to Japan. Also all A330s have full flat seats, similar to the one remaining A340, which are quite comfortable.

I wouldn't be so critical as my friend ffay005. The Premium Lounge definately is crowded during the afternoon rush hours (as the whole airport), but nevertheless I have never had problems finding a table or place to sit down there. Outside those hours it is quite quiet. The lounge itself is very nice, distinctively Finnish/Scandinavian design, and has quite good offering of drinks. Food offerings are mainly very good cold canapes (enough to make a decent and very tasty snack/light meal), with a couple of hot choices (which on the other hand usually are ok but nothing to write home about). Comparing the Premium Lounge to for instance The Wing or Pier First Class lounges in HKG, it is not even on the same planet, JL First at NRT wins with their sushi bar, but is on the same level with QF premium lounges I have been to, and wins for instance BA F lounge in LHR T3 hands down.

I would say AY offers a decent J product, and to my opinion much better than BA for instance, but is not worth comparing to the better Asian carriers. Service is, on the other hand, inconsistent, sometimes you get superb service, and sometimes there are disappointments. It seems that on routes with all-Asian cabin crew (HEL-HKG/SIN-HEL) they don't reach on quite the same level as on other routes.

Nikke

2. I would do anything to avoid AY A350 J seat if there was option to travel CX 77W J. I never experienced AA 77W J so cannot comment about that.

Peregrine415

You described exactly what happened to me as recently as 13 November. Hilton was booked and so was Glo, so I was sent on a bus (yes, with handwritten directions on a piece of paper) to Holiday Inn.

To the OP: don't let AY scare you. I'm based in BOS and take AY regularly to Asia because it has attractive fares to Asia. If you've never been to Helsinki, take the chance to explore the city.

Purjelentaja

From this ever-continuing discussion on AY69 delays one could make conclusion that it is at least a weekly occurence. I checked FR24 statistics (I know that at this point someone with better source of information will draw a rabbit out of the hat and prove I am wrong!), within last 3 months it has happened once, on 13Nov), and in addition to that the flight has been delayed over 1hr 6 times, longest of which has been ~2h. To me it shows the situation has improved significantly, but yes, there always is the chance for that, though much slimmer chance than it used to be, and if it happens to you, now I would say it is just bad luck, not anymore something you were asking for.

intuition

Back in the days, I used to track it and the 8h delays were sometimes as frequent as once weekly or worse but sometimes nothing for a month or two. IIRC the over time average was twice a month during the bad period.

There are a few different sites to track but one can't rely 100% on them. I use flightaware and they seems to have tracked 59 of the 61 flights in the OCT1-NOV30 period. However their delay stats are made up of 53 entries and they didn't catch any delays > 150 minutes. So clearly they have missed the NOV13 flight.

Yeah, I think you are right, situation has improved. But with this NOV13 delay it is clear the "tool" of delaying AY69 8h is still in their toolbox.

PaulInTheSky

Thank you so much for the warm welcome and insightful responses!

I have been in BA 747 Main deck J, CX 77W J, and AA 77W J. Looking at the pictures of A350 J, it seems to me they are very similar, but I would definitely take notes of where to sit in A330/A340 or even A350s. I like going with Window aisle, so it should be either the left or the right.


I cannot believe I am seeing this, as most are complaining against UA and AA's soft product. With the United Polaris and improved AA J menu, I cannot believe AY's foot choices are that sub-par!

Here's what I can do with the J fares in YYZ. They allow connections at LHR(BA 787 out of YYZ), ORD(AY), or JFK(AY). To me, I love TATL flights as long as possible(8.5-11 hours), as flights like East Coast-EU are just not long enough for sleep, so if AY meal choice is not that bad, then I should shoot for ORD-HEL instead of going with YYZ-LHR with BA 787. I would sacrifice not being able to get into CX/BA/AA F lounges at LHR T3. I would also not be able to get the massage in LHR.

Thank you! Actually, I found that the fare components allow connections at BKK, and HKG too, so I can squeeze another good CX J flight out of HKG/BKK if necessary - Actually there will be more miles too. :/

Definitely, yet, recently I was in the JFK-HKG J flight on CX, and I found the cushion a little bit too hard. AA has started providing even bedding pads, so they provided slightly more cushion to the typical J seats do.

For those of you who didn't try CX or AA J seats. They look like the following:

CX

http://onemileatatime.img.boardingar...-3-700x525.jpg

AA

http://s60.photobucket.com/user/enri...9a88c.jpg.html

IRROPs would be tough to swallow. I was wondering if there's a chance to ask them to get me through BA or any EU cities to get on CX J to HKG. How about EU 261/2004 claims for any of you in this particular flight? I know EU airlines (LH/BA/KL/AF) all tend to deny claims at first, and I saw AY didn't like to budge either. For the delays like these, I cannot figure how crew rest/maintenance is categorized as 'weather/ATC/not their control', and how they can deny paying off the EU 261/2004 claims like these.

I got so much recent awful experience with BA(Not endorsing the control transferred from AA, left me stranded) that I almost boycotted flying with them as much as possible. Really wanted to fly all AY, especially in the latest Europe Bonus promotion AA provides bonus miles for AY too. If AY as a whole treats me better than BA does, then I would definitely fly more AY in the near future.

Peregrine415

When this happened to me, my first reaction was to be offloaded to SIN but I'm glad common sense prevailed and I spent an additional night at Holiday Day. Taking the SIN flight would have gotten me to HKG 30 minutes earlier than the delayed direct HEL-HKG flight. The decision to delay AY 69 on 13 November was not made until 21h and the earlier flights to BKK, PVG, PEK had already departed.

AirHelp contacted me about my delayed flight and offered to file a claim on my behalf for a fee (and I accepted).

ffay005

An EU claim of €600 compensation? Please let us know the outcome.

intuition

Asking nicely and doing it as early as possible may help. It is IMHO unlikely to happen by itself or by asking at the HEL transit desk at 23:30 but if you get a heads up for a major delay of this kind (usually by text message) calling in and suggesting reroutes can increase the chance.

Peregrine415

Definitely.