Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Finnair | Finnair Plus
Reload this Page >

Joint ventures making it difficult to book Finnair metal?

Joint ventures making it difficult to book Finnair metal?

Old Mar 30, 2015, 6:21 am
  #91  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: HEL
Programs: SPG LTP, hotels, OWE, STE+, *G, Octopus
Posts: 5,772
I stand corrected. The fare I quoted was AY marketed (obviously) & operated.
remymartin is offline  
Old Jan 29, 2016, 1:15 pm
  #92  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
I've been struggeling with where to post this bit of information, sorry to drag an old thread up.

My issue is that I have found it difficult to book flights and upgrades to Japan. If there was normally priced tickets, there were no upgrades and vice versa.

Lately I find upgrades easier to come by and I been looking to book. Then I get stuck on the the eternal issue of getting 100% earning fares to Japan, since AY webpage doesn't sell them and no OTA offers a search alternative that books K,M,P,T fares.

Anyway, I asked platinum help desk and was told that they will book these without problem if I call. What was surprising to me was they said 'call the platinum line' - I alwyas thought they are only supposed to handle membership topics and that revenue ticket are supposed to be booked through the pay phone number.

I assume even plat line will charge the normal booking fee though.

So is this public knowledge that plat desk will book revenue tickets?
intuition is offline  
Old Jan 29, 2016, 1:54 pm
  #93  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+Plat, ALL Plat, Scandic L2
Posts: 3,619
Aren't Japan JV semi-flexible fares insanely expensive anyway?
Courmisch is offline  
Old Jan 29, 2016, 1:58 pm
  #94  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
Yes, they follow the BA fare structure.
But in my case it doesn't matter. K, M P T can be had in the cheapest unflex fares too.
intuition is offline  
Old Jan 29, 2016, 2:23 pm
  #95  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Programs: Finnair (AY) Platinum, Air France Silver, Tallink Club One Silver :)
Posts: 1,655
Originally Posted by intuition
K, M P T can be had in the cheapest unflex fares too.
Could you elaborate on this one a bit more? I've faced similar problems w/ the other direction. Was trying to get 100% AY tix to JFK, but gave up and bought AA.
Steve_Hun is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 4:04 am
  #96  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
Finnair has the "ticket types" (Campaign, Basic, Value, Pro) where most/all trip attributes are bundled into one package. One ticket type corresponds to one complete set of rules - flexibility and points earning.

The ticket type is treated as an addon on top of the ticket price. The price is still controlled by the fare bucket, so if a ticket in say bucket P has a price of 100€ it might cost 130€ in Basic and 160€ in Value.

The idea is to present the customer with a base price and clear options that costs more but contains more. You will always upfront know what you are getting for your money and you can decide for yourself that you want to pay extra to get better flexibility and more points.


Then the Japan joint business comes along, and AY folds completely in front of big daddy BA. So all tickets to Japan are sold the BA way. That means the customer only have the option of different flexibility levels: "Econ saver", "Econ premium saver", "Econ flex" and "Econ premium flex".

Naturally the "premium" price categories means nothing to AY since they don't offer this cabin, but what the heck, BA knows best... So there is a inflexible ticket and a flexible one.

But with this fare system, and here is the big thing, the price AND the earnings are controlled by the fare bucket, which is not visible or selectable. All tickets, regardless of flexibility choice, are always sold from the lowest available fare bucket. So a 500€ econ-saver and a 1500€ econ-flex ticket sold today earns the same on AY+ program, like 25%.

To earn 100%, you need to find a ticket in buckets K,M,P,T regardless of what flexibility to are paying extra for. And you can't choose K,M,P,T, you can only wait for all the lower buckets to be emptied, before the booking engine offers you a hidden T fare.

Or you need to use a travel agent to force the T fare, and that is what I was offered to have done by the AY+ call center.


[Ranting]
It makes great sense, because naturally BA doesn't care about creating loyalty in the AY+ program, and if you can sell some econ-premium tickets and fly people in AY cattle class then there is more money for BA to extract from the joint business.


This is a major issue if one wants to fly AY, wants to credit to AY+ and wants to go to Japan. Not only did they make the system less transparent and more complex than before. They also raised the prices and slashed the earnings.

It is very difficult to understand why Finnair went into this agreement. Even if they manage to sell 100% of the now overpriced under-rewarded AY flights to japan, they won't keep the profits from it, since they all share revenue based on capacity. So when AY sells an expensive AY ticket, BA gets more money.


--- Added
And yes, the same goes for the TransAtlantic joint venture. So only China, Korea and Thailand is left for AY to control them selves.
intuition is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 5:33 am
  #97  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
I did a few dummy bookings and it seems

a) econ flex in the Japan joint business books into Y,B,H on AY, ie earns 150%. So they are not just normal econ tickets like I thought, and thus earns better. But you are left with only 2 AY options - cheapest flight with no flexibility and very low earnings or very very expensive full flexible ticket.

b) If you book from AY web site and choose to fly JL or BA, many times even the cheapest fares earns 100% or at least 50% to AY+. If you chose the AY option from the same search, it is always more expensive and never above 50% earning.

Last edited by intuition; Jan 30, 2016 at 10:53 am Reason: grammar
intuition is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 8:33 am
  #98  
TTL
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: KUO
Programs: HH Diam, AY/AX/KQ/IHG/VISA Plat, SK/Bonvoy/Melia/Strawberry Gold, Radisson Prem, PP Prest, BT Exec
Posts: 2,249
Problem almost solved by positioning first to ARN (or nearly anywhere else but Finland). One week in Tokio using AY metal in B-class (economy flexible) for 17027 SEK = 1830. The cheapest option that way would be 5625 SEK = 605 (in S-class).

Cartels rarely benefit the paying customers...
TTL is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 10:52 am
  #99  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
Exactly the search I did, and I am not buying a B ticket for 1830€ when business class to TYO is available around that price.

100% earning AY ticket from ARN is 885€ so one has the option to pay 280€ + travel agent fee to get +50% points - It is acceptable but with the ticket type system it would have been in the 700€ range.
intuition is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 11:04 am
  #100  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
By the way, H (the cheapest fare bucket in economy flex) is much more reasonable priced. However, H has some O/D restrictions so while there is plenty H availability on every segment, there isn't a single flight from anywhere in europe to japan via HEL that has availability in H...
intuition is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 3:32 pm
  #101  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Programs: Finnair (AY) Platinum, Air France Silver, Tallink Club One Silver :)
Posts: 1,655
Originally Posted by intuition
Finnair has the "ticket types" (Campaign, Basic, Value, Pro) where most/all trip attributes are bundled into one package. One ticket type corresponds to one complete set of rules - flexibility and points earning.

.....
Thanks a lot for this great and detailed explanation, highly appreciated!

Last edited by Steve_Hun; Jan 31, 2016 at 12:09 am Reason: made the quote shorter
Steve_Hun is offline  
Old Jan 30, 2016, 11:42 pm
  #102  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Helsinki-Vantaa APT, Finland
Programs: AY LUMO
Posts: 6,043
Originally Posted by intuition
So only China, Korea and Thailand is left for AY to control them selves.
I would add India, Singapore and Vietnam (SGN) there.
OH-LGG is offline  
Old Feb 7, 2016, 7:25 am
  #103  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+Plat, ALL Plat, Scandic L2
Posts: 3,619
Originally Posted by intuition
Yes, they follow the BA fare structure.
But in my case it doesn't matter. K, M P T can be had in the cheapest unflex fares too.
Sure, they are comparatively cheaper than fully flexible fares. But my point was, are K, M, P and T not awfully expensive (too)?

At least as far as I recall, before the introduction of Finnair ticket types, K, M, P and T fares were the semi-flexible fare structures (typically earning 50%). You could not buy them from any websites, unless there was no remaining availability in the cheaper inflexible fares (typically earning 25%).

I would assume that is also the case for JV-constrained fares.
Courmisch is offline  
Old Feb 7, 2016, 8:02 am
  #104  
Moderator, Finnair
Original Poster
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: MMX (CPH)
Programs: Eurobonus Diamond, QR Platinum, AY+ Platinum, A3*G, Nordic Choice Lifetime Platinum, SJ Prio Black
Posts: 14,132
Yes, K,M,P,T are expensive if compared to Value booked in advance (since Value can be had in any class with a fixed add on). If Y is 20 times the cost of an R, then T is 10 times R and K is 14 times R.

But in more normal fare classes, like S, the difference is not that large. A T-fare compared to a theoretcial "S with Value" (which doesn't exist) is some 30% more expensive. Not cheap, but at least 100% points. And that is my point - how can a Finnair loyalty program work when customers to Japan pay a premium to fly Finnair and gets less awarded?
intuition is offline  
Old Feb 7, 2016, 8:35 am
  #105  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: HEL
Programs: AY+Plat, ALL Plat, Scandic L2
Posts: 3,619
Either Finnair is not allowed to expose upper fares as part of the JV agreements, or they just did not bother. To be honest, I don't know a lot of airlines who expose that feature... though UA and DL come to mind.
Courmisch is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.