WilcoRoger

My thoughts exactly. Throw in Asia-bound trips, where BA/LHR makes even less sense...

Flying Yazata

There's no incentive for me to go AY+ - zilch, nada, none.

Miles/Points expire and getting OW Emerald isn't easy (and no, doing ARN/BMA or turboprop runs doesn't count as that), not to mention the perks are bland and how the Platinum priviledges have so far been executed. Furthermore I don't fancy booking anything advanced with AY, taken how phone reservations are with a fee, plus how AMEX always get a surcharge levied upon. Out of my 6 recent AY flights (actual AY or outsourced Norra), all have been subpar or bland. It's just a tool for me to position myself for other airlines, that's about it.

As all my current travel is leisure, I can dictate how I wish to get to my destination (inc. flying in C) and renew my status. And nope, AY only comes into the picture as a necessary nuisance, not something I look forward to. Too bad the market is too small for local competitors. AY can cut back on almost anything.

Just stating that not every Finn is a Finnair hugger.

kauppias

Not everyone is a AY fan but AY is not by far the worst

AY+ has some benefits like the gold partner card that are great... But something for everyone, ie it wont work for everyone... Baec might work for others while AY+ for some... i was a AA man for a long time but NOW I have to reevaluate

lkrt

I might be biased since I've only had top tier status with AY, but still I beg to disagree on many points.

Getting Platinum is not really that difficult and points do not expire while your Platinum (i.e. forever).

While there are some flights with really subpar service, I find the Finnair service often very unique and suitable for my Finnish/Nordic mindset and expectations.

Flying Yazata

I wrote my post on purpose a bit nosy, just to make a different point as this is a Finnair subforum.

Okay, indeed, points don't expire as Platinum, but then again I really need to keep my status up-to-date for that. I find it more relaxed with BAEC.

Anyway, I really disagree with the claim that AY service is unique.

Yes, it's unique to treat your top tier guests with murmuring and incoherency. I've read the thread about Platinum recognition and, for instance, if someone would say me "sää haluat varmaan lehden", I'd honestly reply "sää taidat olla joku räkänokka kun et osaa olla kohtelias" (i.e. "you're somekinda chav/Essex girl, taken you can't be polite"). AY is okay, but not anything stellar on an European level (no, not comparing to CX etc.).

I personally like BA on longhaul and shorthaul as there's consistancy and they're overall mainly nice crew. Not to mention all the actually fun, yet diligent crew on any airline I've experienced have always been with BA.

Furthermore BA has actually uniforms I like. AY's current female uniforms are tacky, sorry. It's not in any sense stylish, but rather feels like some student from Aalto ARTS had a brilliant idea on a Sunday morning, with a nice hangover and having watched too much Star Trek.

As for the actual flying, my flights with AY have been par with others. Nothing special in terms on take offs and landings. IMHO the biggest reason for why AY is such a cherished thing for us Finns, is the language and ownership. Other than that, I have never experienced anything that would really give me a reason to say "fly AY, if you want good service." However I could say "fly AY, if you want to try something else in OW." It works, but so does SK. And actually even Norwegian, hence I myself would never fly with them anymore.

lkrt

I again disagree on many points.

BA has IMHO the worst hard product there is, both short-haul and long-haul, which even their service can't make up. Moreover, I think the CW concept totally destroys the thought of personal service in business class, there are simply too many passengers to feel even a little special.

Again, I find the AY uniforms really sharp-looking, whereas BA's uniforms bring the 1990's to my mind. They are very old-fashioned and stuffy while Finnair actually looks fresh and have their own style to it. BA's uniform is very ordinary, too ordinary.

I really do not favor or cherish Finnair because it is state-owned. If I cared about state ownership, I'd probably just avoid using Finnair, as I don't find state-owned airlines very fair to free markets. I favor Finnair because I think they have a certain style of their own to what they do and I like it. They are an affordable choice and provide me with a route network that suits my needs. That's really all there is to it.

Then again we're not all carved from the same tree and I can see where you're coming from. I think we just have a bit different expectations and likings when it comes to airline customer service.

CeruleanBlue

Agree. I fly BA about 2-6 times a month, but Finnair has worked hard on developing a clear branding and concept, which I think stands out: the focus on design (including uniforms, aircraft interior, the whole Marimekko theme - and the lounges of course) and the focus on a calm, smooth experience (including service, music, and syncing with the HEL airport branding for a smoother journey). Compared to this for example SK and BA seem impersonal, although the BA branding is successful in its 100% focus on service and professionality.

However, Finnair is not perfect, and many may not give a flying fruit about the above branding and customer experience. But I like the current identity of a "boutique airline" or whatever you want to call it - it stands out among faceless large airlines. And I admire what they've attempt to do from a branding perspective. I'm a happy customer most of the time, and they do service my needs very well. Now if the flights to and from LHR were cheaper than BA I would choose AY any time.

Flying Yazata

I would never pay for a pure shorthaul ticket in C with an Airbus A319/A320 of AY, taken there's no middle table and the seats look so pale and bland. CE looks and feels modern on an Airbus A320, if it's the current newer design. As for the new A350 and longhaul, the interior there too looks bland.

Adding to the whole design discussion: anything Marimekko... ewwww.

I wish to counter you by stating I was recently flying CW onboard a 747-400 with the 86 seat CW config, with just BAEC Bronze back then. I was always addressed Mr. Flying Yazata and to my surprise even the CSM (head purser) had time to stop by, introduce herself and thank for my business. I wouldn't expect that with AY, but the sampling done by FT'ers here in terms of AY+ Platinum recognition is seriously crap. One very good reason for not entertaining the idea of doing a crazy run for the top of AY+. Sorry, it's just not great. BTW, traditional Finnish customs actually means being polite, hence in a Lutheran, apologetic style.

It can't be so hard to do something like: "Saisiko Teille olla juotavaa, sillä matkustatte paljon lennoillamme?" or "Haluamme tarjota Teille päivän lehden paljon lentävänä asiakkaana, olisiko esimerkiksi Ilta-Sanomat tervetullut?" ("Would You like to drink something, as you're frequently on our flights?", "We would like to offer You a daily newspaper as our frequent flying customer, would you for instance like Ilta-Sanomat?")

It's classy, which is probably also known as ordinary. Then again my favourite uniform design is either Alitalia or Etihad. But I was just using BA as they fly to HEL, are European (hence Brexit) and an OW member.

Indeed, but that's why we debate online. It's called "we agree to disagree."

WilcoRoger

Well, I fly/flew both AY and BA extensively and I tend to lean towards AY. The main issues

- the dorm of CW (8 across - really?)
- "afternoon tea" on CE
- gutting of BAEC and the new CCR threshold

(BA is better in that they have First, so you can use your vouchers/Avios to get there)

Shorthaul in Y - who cares whether AY or BA?

Of course as this topic is about the FFPs and not about the airlines as such, I'd say for AY fliers AY+ is generally better and BA flyers BAEC is generally better.

intuition

Flying Yakuza.. erh, sorry Yazata has a point. AY is pretty bland, inconsistent and not very good when it comes to interacting with repeat customers. There is a lot they need to learn if they want to survive. Recognizing tier customers is only one those things.

But when the comparison is to BA and BAEC, then it becomes silly...

Everytime this thread pops up in my inbox, I re-make the comparison and everytime AY+ comes out on top, when compared to BAEC for my type of flying. Not by much but enough to not even consider starting to endure flying BA.

I am not known for praising the Finnair cabin and comfort, and I am currently boycotting all Finnair A350 due to the new J cabin, but I'll take OH-LWx with duct tape and all anyday over a BA dormitory cabin with 8 abreast.

I do think the cabin on BA longhauls has a nicer look than AY's, as does SK's.
But I also have found that the looks of the cabin is only "important" on the very few first flights. Once acclimatised, the seat (space and comfort) is most important to me. Food&Drinks (quality/taste, presentation and interactions during service) is second and the rest a distant third. BA does well on the food&drinks when it comes to quality and taste but that doesn't really compensate if the customer needs to carry their plates to the galley themselves...

Like many, I've had several incidents with AY crew either uncomitted to the work or lacking language and/or basic interaction skills. But I have never been insulted or treated like I'm a nuisance, which I've been on BA.


As for the ownership of AY, well yes, I did hold 200 shares at one point in my life. But if you are referring to the 53% held by the Finnish state, then sorry, doesn't concern me. The hint that Finns in general will chose AY for national reasons may be true but I doubt it is prevalent on this board!

Flying Yazata

Actually I do. Not the actual cabin, but what the economy booking classes entitle to. The BA handluggage policy is much more relaxed (I know, thanks to HBO fares), which means my HBO travel is mainly under threat from any possible AY intervention, if someone would want to get my backpack weighted. I've so far never had that happen, but in theory AY could become cranky at some of my trips.

Other than that, I do however choose BA over AY in terms of what is available as free catering. On AY I can only choose between still water and blueberry juice (which isn't even Finnish). Very minor issue, but it annoys me.

Sorry, I disagree.

My homebase (TMP) isn't a BA destination and I fly all my OW flights due to my own discretion of doing leisure trips and just overall being a nutter. I'm a frequent flyer junkie, so I might be able to keep AY+ Platinum for OWE from one year to another, if I'd choose to do so. Then again it's highly unlikely. Thus mileage redemption does indeed become an issue as I can't thank my employer for sponsoring my FFP mileage hoarding.

In my scenario BAEC is a much safer option, as I can't for sure predict how much I fly with OW each qualifying year. (Except now that I wish to maintain status, so, yes, I do get it done one way or another.) Thus it's smarter to collect Avios over time, without having to lose them. This applies also to most other leisure oriented frequent flyers. Previously I would've mentioned AAdvantage as a viable option, but not anymore.

I agree that AY+ probably works for the typical FT'er with AY+ Platinum, because you qualify easily due to plenty of business trips. That's something I don't try to deny. Furthermore you get new miles all the time, so losing a few over time isn't necessarily an issue you bother with. However I don't see so many AY specific perks with AY+ Platinum that would make me choose it over BAEC, even if I would be doing business trips. Now, if they would for instance waive phone reservation and credit card surcharges, then I could consider it as a true perk to be AY+ Platinum.

As a final concession towards the AY+ FT'ers: I do give kudos to AY for the upgrade vouchers you get. But other than that, I think AY should do more to improve the silver lining on how you experience the most bespoke level of loyalty. I can snatch free newspapers with BA, at the airport, as a Y passenger, without status, in many circumstances, so the free newspaper really isn't OWE grade stuff.

Flying Yazata

I agree on the CW configuration, but then again I'm not too bothered with it.

I actually think BA isn't doing so well in terms of beverages. I mean, come on, the UK is a country of beer, cider, perry, whiskey and gin, but yet their beer selection is worse than e.g. AA, which at least has 4 different beers on its longhaul menu (yes, I did count those "light" ones as well ). Then again AY isn't any better either, hence Finland is traditionally a beer country, thanks to Germanic heritage. Furthermore as a friend of real cider and perry, airlines never really make the cut for me.

Overall what really bothers me with Finnair is the lack of attention to detail, which also explains why AY+ Platinums don't get what one would expect. There's many ways to come to my conclusion, but for instance just look at a typical AY menu card and you get the drift. It's so amateurish in terms of layout and details. Ack. Now compare it to e.g. IB and you really feel like it's the business class of Norwegian.

For the record: AA has been the worst for me in terms of a major OW airline and its onboard customer/cabin service. Especially related to flight safety and consistancy in the execution of the service. Furthermore I'm very frustrated by how AA doesn't enforce any lavatory restrictions. Well, at least I could've had a free (sorry, read: complimentary) 1st class dump on my latest TATLs with AA, thanks to that.

As for AY, I've had some bad experiences, especially on one of their charter flights and failing to deplane a drunk sod. Had to sit next to that being, who had boozed all week and was a total wreck, some 4 hrs... Thanks to this, I never ever any longer do any charter flights. Other than that, there has at several occasions been some way too soft air hostesses that haven't had enough balls to commandeer. Last time was on my recent FCO-HEL flight and Italians crowding the emergency exit area for chatter, while the FA should've disarmed the slide. I voiced myself in clear English as I was tired of the Italians.

Indeed.

kauppias

I am NOT a fan of AY but I am leaning towards AY+ either as my main or secondary program in OW after the enhancements in ba and AA programs of late.

I dont really like the Finnair service on LH J as I have had many subpar experiences. In Y however I have had better experiences.

Go figure

ba is just BAD these day in MY opinion. I understand for many it is different.

I dislike CW not all aisle access. They are gutting thwir service standard in CW/F abd WT/WTP. Less for more and not in the good direction. I was going to stay with baEC and do GGL but luckily they change the criteria so no need for that



AAs new program just wont work for me so I ditched it after getting the new evips �� I still like the AA J product. Perhaps the American in me

The baec does not really reward much in my opinion, sure status is easy to get so thats a plus then again baec Gold isnt really special again just my opinion.

But thank goodness there are many programs to suit many people. I think those who fly mainly AY Paid J on AY code are winners in AY plus. Other then that it may be excruciating


Hopefully service will improve. Not alot of finnish staff onboard anymore it seems or I am just on those flights without abd lots of outsourced planes so...

In the next 6month I will test out QR EY EK etc so maybe more radical moved but I doubt it

I never thought I would consider even AY plus but here I am considering I have a feeling they will mirror alot of positives of other programs from Plat while bleedibg golds/silvers dry
ZERO inside knowledge just a hunch!

Perhaps a SK like diamond comp upgrade

lkrt

Never have I ever had any problem with my hand luggage. Furthermore, AY at least gives you the option to check in your luggage, even on an HBO fare if you're elite. Something you can't really say about BA, which tries to exclude itself from every single OW benefit.

Never have I ever had a point expire. I think for a frequent flyer an expiration time of three years shouldn't really be a problem.

Never have I ever flown a business trip. I really can't say I'd find hitting Platinum especially difficult. I've been flying for leisure and only one of these trips has been in paid J.

Overall, I've always found AY+ to suit my needs the best. Most of my points I spend on either status or business upgrades. If I was in BAEC/AADV I'd miss out on the business upgrades (flying AY). I just personally really dislike the BA service, lounges and all that. Moreover we're seeing some bad enhancements like the removal of amouse bouche in longhaul F, the "new" Club World which is going to be as bad as the old one with eight abreast and so on. I really have no desire of going away from AY.

WilcoRoger

I agree, BAEC policy of non-expiry if you have any account movement in a year is good. OTOH if you lose your Avios, you lose them all, not just the expiring ones.

If you're moving in the AY Gold/Plat range, it means that you're collecting the points at least at 100k p.a rate, so you always have a stash to use - upgrading & award flights. You're a frequent leasure traveller, so you'd welcome this. The expiry may be an issue for very infrequent travellers, where 20k or 30k seem like science fiction

But I do keep a stash of Avios (and AA miles) because there are situations where they are just much better.

And as for my remark about earning/burning - these days el cheapo flights get you minimum Avios on non-BA/IB flights and little better AY+ points on non-AY flights. Same in the front of the bus - much better earnings on own metal in both FFPs.

As I fly a lot eastbound, I appreciate AY's Asian network - most everywhere it's just one flight, no connections (KUL, I need you!) This drives me naturally to AY+ When I had (used to have) a lot of Middle-East travel, BA was one of the options with LH, OS and LX. Then it was a good choice for me and I made normally 2500-2700TPs. Was just about to hit 3000TPs when the CCR rules changed. That was the final straw.