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F from BHX - chance of aircraft substituion?

F from BHX - chance of aircraft substituion?

Old Aug 28, 2015, 5:33 am
  #16  
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Originally Posted by pomkiwi
Mmm - 2 substitutions in the past 3 days, maybe my optimism might be misplaced. Might leave it a couple of weeks and if the pattern continues and if the loads out and back continue to be so light try and see if they might move a Plat to the morning flight from LHR
The best LHR flight IMO. I love arriving at a near deserted DXB
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Old Aug 28, 2015, 5:50 am
  #17  
 
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None of us are keen on late substitutions, but must say you've never struck me as a guy who would overly stress re the prospect of an occasional J instead of F pomkiwi - least of all where it involves just a 6/7 hour sector.
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Old Aug 28, 2015, 9:40 am
  #18  
 
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Originally Posted by pomkiwi
Mmm - 2 substitutions in the past 3 days, maybe my optimism might be misplaced. Might leave it a couple of weeks and if the pattern continues and if the loads out and back continue to be so light try and see if they might move a Plat to the morning flight from LHR
I'm shocked, but not surprised. They've hardly advertised it - some adverts in the press would be a start but its up to them.
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Old Aug 28, 2015, 4:20 pm
  #19  
 
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So
Theoretically what would a pax booked and paid for in F expect as recompense for the downgrade to J in a 2 class substitution?
SSF
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Old Aug 28, 2015, 4:35 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Silverswimmer
So
Theoretically what would a pax booked and paid for in F expect as recompense for the downgrade to J in a 2 class substitution?
SSF
EU261/2004 regulations would apply: you would be entitled to 75% of the fare paid (actual cash spent). Of course, it is not entirely that simple!

The regulations are not clear about the basis of "fare paid". Now, this is where EK will claim it's 75% of the allocated cost for that sector (a calculation they might make by taking half the cost of the outbound fare, or, as I have seen, calculating a per kilometer cost and applying it pro-rata). Most claimants put forward the argument that it's based on the whole fare paid, not on the pro-rated costs.

National enforcement bodies are inconsistent on this, so absent a court case, which I would expect to go all the way to the ECJ as previous EU261/2004 cases have done, it would be up to you to see if you are satisfied with their compensation offer and to take it up via legal channels if not.

In the case that EK notify a passenger some time in advance of the substitution, they usually waive change and refund fees.
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Old Aug 29, 2015, 3:35 am
  #21  
 
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Thanks ET,hope it does not happen to us.
Back to the OP-Substitution
The BHX boys advise that the substitutions were due to high loads/overbooking on an outbound and also an inbound linked to school holiday dates ( and probably no/few F pax) The EK BHX load figures for all 3 daily flights "could be exceptional" so August was a great month to launch the 3rd daily flight
SSF
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Old Aug 29, 2015, 4:43 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by eternaltransit
EU261/2004 regulations would apply: you would be entitled to 75% of the fare paid (actual cash spent). Of course, it is not entirely that simple!

The regulations are not clear about the basis of "fare paid". Now, this is where EK will claim it's 75% of the allocated cost for that sector (a calculation they might make by taking half the cost of the outbound fare, or, as I have seen, calculating a per kilometer cost and applying it pro-rata). Most claimants put forward the argument that it's based on the whole fare paid, not on the pro-rated costs.

.................................................. ......
Therein lies the issue of course - ie the lack of clarity, and the fact that carriers will - not surprisingly - follow the pro-rata line until established legal precedent forces their hand.

If I could be confident that the "fare paid" principle would definitely apply .....and I were faced with the choice of either F travel throughout from, say, UK to Asia/Australasia OR a enforced drop to J for the short initial sector only, in return for a 75% refund of the total cash paid ......hmm ........think I know which I'd choose

Last edited by subject2load; Aug 29, 2015 at 4:48 am
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Old Aug 29, 2015, 4:49 am
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by subject2load
Therein lies the issue of course - ie the lack of clarity, and the fact that carriers will - not surprisingly - follow the pro-rata line until established legal precedent forces their hand.

If I could be confident that the "fare paid" principle would definitely apply .....and I were faced with the choice of either F travel throughout from, say, UK to Asia/Australasia OR a drop to J for the short initial sector only, in return for a 75% refund of the total cash paid ......hmm ........think I know which I'd choose
Indeed - carriers claim it's more reasonable to do it on a per sector basis, because of scenarios like the one above you mentioned, but the counter-argument is that the regulation is meant to be a penalty on the carrier to discourage aircraft substitutions and downgrades and so hefty costs should be applied.

Hopefully someone with deep pockets comes along and takes it to the ECJ!
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Old Aug 29, 2015, 5:11 am
  #24  
 
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Looking at the wider picture, and in fairness standing for a moment in the shoes of a carrier ...... we all know that the original legislation, despite its apparent clarity, left room for differing opinion and hence dispute. There is understandably an industry-wide view that the notion of a 'full' 75% refund for the very limited 'harm' suffered on one sector of a multi-sector trip is just way too generous and unreasonably biased in favour of the consumer ; and then on the other side there is the deterrent factor highlighted by eternaltransit.

Can't remember whether it was here or over on the BA forum, but some time ago there was a poster (with seemingly professional legal expertise) who stated that there was a proposed amendment to EU261 currently 'on the table' and that - if eventually enacted - would swing things back firmly in the favour of carriers by specifying beyond doubt that any 'downgrade' refunds would apply on a purely per sector basis, rather than calculated against full fare as paid for the entire journey. If you take a dispassionate view (and set aside any rosy thoughts of personal profit ....!!) then this would seem more balanced & sensible.

That said, the most recent Court ruling involving EU261 did favour the consumer and in very clear fashion, as many members will have heard/read. It was about delays rather than downgrades .....Ryanair had pleaded that the 6 year rule on retrospective claims be reduced to two ; they lost their case but I believe are considering an appeal of the decision.
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Old Aug 29, 2015, 7:08 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by subject2load
Can't remember whether it was here or over on the BA forum, but some time ago there was a poster (with seemingly professional legal expertise) who stated that there was a proposed amendment to EU261 currently 'on the table' and that - if eventually enacted - would swing things back firmly in the favour of carriers by specifying beyond doubt that any 'downgrade' refunds would apply on a purely per sector basis, rather than calculated against full fare as paid for the entire journey. If you take a dispassionate view (and set aside any rosy thoughts of personal profit ....!!) then this would seem more balanced & sensible.

That said, the most recent Court ruling involving EU261 did favour the consumer and in very clear fashion, as many members will have heard/read. It was about delays rather than downgrades .....Ryanair had pleaded that the 6 year rule on retrospective claims be reduced to two ; they lost their case but I believe are considering an appeal of the decision.
I'll believe the clarifications when I see it

EK strangely enough are willing to take things all the way to the ECJ (http://curia.europa.eu/juris/documen...587&doclang=EN) and the Court was reasonably favorable to EK, so who knows, maybe we'll see something in the next few years!
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Old Aug 29, 2015, 11:59 am
  #26  
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Well I'd already paid my miles for one way to JNB in F and returning paid J to LHR. There was one F award seat from LHR to DXB on EK008 on my date and I've paid my $25 fee to change. Not particularly stressed but as it's a short holiday trip to take more safari photos I'm happier with a guaranteed F seat. If there was a downgrade from BHX I'm sure that any discussions about refund / compensation would not be completely smooth and I can't be bothered to argue. Also while J would be fine there would be a fair chance of ending up in a middle J seat on the 777 as I would be pretty much the last to choose. Thanks for all the input and advice and hope that F from BHX turns out to be more popular than it currently appears.
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Old Aug 30, 2015, 2:58 am
  #27  
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Originally Posted by pomkiwi
Well I'd already paid my miles for one way to JNB in F and returning paid J to LHR. There was one F award seat from LHR to DXB on EK008 on my date and I've paid my $25 fee to change. Not particularly stressed but as it's a short holiday trip to take more safari photos I'm happier with a guaranteed F seat. If there was a downgrade from BHX I'm sure that any discussions about refund / compensation would not be completely smooth and I can't be bothered to argue. Also while J would be fine there would be a fair chance of ending up in a middle J seat on the 777 as I would be pretty much the last to choose. Thanks for all the input and advice and hope that F from BHX turns out to be more popular than it currently appears.
Enjoy the BA lounge
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Old Aug 30, 2015, 3:47 am
  #28  
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Originally Posted by DYKWIA
Enjoy the BA lounge
That was one reason BHX was attractive
Still haven't actually walked round T3 for a while.......
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Old Aug 30, 2015, 4:11 pm
  #29  
 
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Last weekend before schools go back so three Emirates two class 77W's in today, no doubt the 3 class was changed due inbound loads.
SSF
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Old Sep 15, 2015, 3:15 am
  #30  
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Off from LHR tomorrow. EK Source suggests that 5 of the last 8 EK41/42 rotations have been operated by a 2 class plane.
It feels like a missed opportunity for EK.
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