weeklyflyer77

I am flying from LHR - DXB - KHI in a few days.

I got one of the upgrades emails for both sectors from Emirates, one is cash based (LHR-DXB) for £450 and the for DXB-KHI they offered either a cash or discounted skywards miles (35% discount). I took the offer on DXB-KHI to upgrade using the miles. After the DXB - KHI upgrade I had a look on using miles to upgrade LHR - DXB and noticed that the Emirates website is no longer asking me for the £65 APD applicable from LHR (which I have paid for upgrades in the past). My question is:

- If I use the miles to upgrade LHR - DXB, can they ask me to pay the APD at the airport?
- The flight seems pretty empty in J, so I might leave it to when I get on the plane and ask for an on-board upgrade which as I understand does not incure the APD.

Dave Noble

Yes they can ; the standard rate of APD is due if any part of the journey from UK to destination/stopover point is in anything other than economy

If you are flying LHR-DXB-KHI eith no stopover in DXB, then even just upgrading the DXB-KHI sector will mean that you are liable for the extra APD

From the description it would seem likely that

you are on a single ticketed itinerary from LHR-KHI with no stopover in Dubai and
that the system failed to collect the additional APD when you upgraded DXB-KHI.

Now when attempting to upgrade LHR-DXB, it is erroneously assuming that the required APD must have been paid already since the current itinerary already should have had the higher duty paid and so is not asking for the extra money

Whether the airline could come and ask for the due money after the upgrade is processed would depend on the applicable laws

eternaltransit

This depends on how long the stopover in DXB is for and whether the flight is classed as connected. If your stopover is over 24 hours, the flights are not connected for APD purposes, essentially.

the UAE and Pakistan are both in Band B, so what matters here is:
1 - whether your flights are connected, and therefore, if so
2 - do you pay the standard or reduced rate

in your case
If your stopover is <24 hours, you don't pay any additional APD
If your stopover is >24 hours, there is APD due at the standard rate instead of the reduced rate (which is 138GBP instead of 67GBP) because your onward flight is classed as being in a higher different class of travel due to the upgrade

However - APD is an excise duty that is payable by the (first) uplifting carrier, in this case EK, not you. You are not specifically liable to pay this additional duty, but, if EK so choose, they can pass this cost on to you and refuse to accept you for travel until you pay the additional cost.

So - even the journey is attracting a higher APD cost because of your Skywards upgrade, it's still up to EK to collect the money off you. If they let you check in and board at LHR, it's their problem. But do bear in mind, they can ask you to pay the APD difference, yes.

skye1

UK APD is based on distance flown from a UK-origin airport, and on cabin travelled, regardless if one or more of the segments is or isn't upgraded

The post regarding stopover caviats is well worth keeping in mind.

eternaltransit

I apologise for being "that guy" but the APD is based on the final destination country, not the distance - thus flying LHR-LAX is in Band B, but LHR-MLE is in Band C, even though they are of similar distance.

Segment upgrade matters, because if you have an economy class flight to ex-UK to a Band B stopover point but the onward connected sector business class (flight, for example), no matter how the long haul flight is upgraded (except op-up), and the final destination is in Band D, APD is liable at the Band D standard rate (which is the one you pay for premium classes, as the three rates are reduced, standard and higher - which is mainly for private jets).

The rules are available here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...passenger-duty

But really those rules are aimed at carriers, not passengers. As said previously, it's up to the carrier whether they want to pass that cost on or not.

Dave Noble

If going to be "that man", you might want to get it correct in that it is the distance to the Capital of the country ( not distance to the airport or distance to the country )

In the OP's situation , all of Dubai, Karachi and Pakaistan's Capital Islamabad are in the 2001-4000 miles range where the APD is GBP67 /GBP134

eternaltransit

For ultra pedantry then:

The inclusion of the word mostly implies that whilst it is a general rule that the bands are based on the distance to the capital of the country, there exist some exceptions. In fact, strictly speaking, distance is irrelevant to APD, it is simply which band the final destination of the flight which is within the scope of APD which determines the amount of duty liable (and the class of travel to determine reduced/standard/higher rate). There is no strict formula for the bands, they are simply assigned by the Treasury.

Technically correct. The best kind of correct. Especially on the internets.

Still it's an academic exercise, because the rumour mill is that APD is going to be abolished next year anyway...!

ukdoctor

I fly the LGW-DXB-DEL route frequently and the APD charged is interesting. Almost all my trips are connections and not stopovers at DXB.

I have upgraded DXB-DEL on several occasions and EK have never charged me any excess APD.

On the other hand if I try to upgrade the LGW- DXB sector I have to pay the excess APD till DEL.

Regarding the OP not seeing the excess APD ex UK, I'm afraid that its probably just a bug in the system( after a mileage upgrade on the second sector).I have always been caught out at checkin and have been asked to pay the excess APD at the airport.

I suspect that the EK check in system does a secondary check on the APD status on ex UK flights.

Dave Noble

From Excise Notice 550: Air Passenger Duty at https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ations-by-band


The only exception to the capital city is for the Russian Federation which is split into 2

Pakistan and UAE are both in the same band, so if APD is due it makes no difference whether the destination is in the UAE or in Pakistan

Regardless,in relation to the OP's issue, the response from skye1 was accurate

jackiedada

Its not that they 'can ask', but more like they 'will demand'. I had upgraded myself + wife + daughter using miles and no mention of any APD until reached the check-in desk at MAN at which the check-in agent told me that he can't check me in until I clear the APD due. I mentioned neither the agent who upgraded my ticket nor the website mentioned any fees or taxes payable, but the agent said that system won't allow check-in until APD has been paid. As I had done some reading on this before, I had kept some GBP and change with me and had a good excuse to get rid off it completely.

m3red

A tip to avoid this is to upgrade on board if you have enough status and you know the flight is empty.

I'm still trying to get mine refunded! Work in progress!

ukdoctor

The roblem with upgrading on board ex UK is that you dont get the car ex UK. Moreover getting a car at DXB is also not easy since

1. In theory the cars on arrival at DXB have to be prebooked anyway but they usually dont bother about it as long as you have a j boarding pass
2. On board upgrades will not give you a J boarding card.

m3red

I had no problems with this.

I did a Y to F onboard and they gave me a J car saying only 25k had been deducted. In reality they took 25k and 25k and I didn't care.