Programs: BA Gold, EY Gold, TK Elite, EK Silver, CX Gold, HH Gold, Cafe Nero Loyalty Card, Argos Gift Card
Posts: 1,982
EK vs EU261: Let Battle Commence.
Ok. A little background before I begin:
In May 2011 I was on an EK flight from LON-DXB, which was delayed by around 7 hours.
I asked to be offloaded and was told that this was "logistically difficult" and there was a good chance "I wouldn't see my bags again" if I tried.
I tried to upgrade from Y-J at the airport, but was told that only my connecting leg from DXB-KUL was available. I said OK, and told them to do the upgrade (over the phone). It turned out I was "overcharged" by around 10k miles when I got back home and checked my account.
The IFE on the KUL leg was faulty, as was the seat (really old J seats).
Service in the airport at LON regarding the delay was appalling (refused me the use of a computer to send an email when I asked, which I'm entitled to do by law when delayed).
Generally just a proper sh**ty experience.
I complained to Skywards, and asked them to explain themselves. I also asked them to provide me with the 600EUR compensation for the delay.
They refused the compensation, citing the ECJ decision being "on hold", but as a "gesture of goodwill" for the problems I'd experienced with their service, they offered me 20k Skywards miles. I refused, saying that this was only a 10k gesture when you account for the 10k miles I was overcharged. They said Ok, and upped it to 30k.
With the recent ECJ decision, I wrote to them last month explaining that I now want my 600EUR compensation which I'm legally entitled to.
They wrote back today saying that I am indeed entitled to the compensation, and that I should provide my bank details for the transfer. They also said that they have taken the 30k miles which were provided "in lieu of compensation" from my account. I checked, and they really have gone! Wow.
I've told them that they have no right to deduct the miles and I'll happily take them to court for the reimbursement cost if they don't go back in immediately; but just wow, Emirates. Are they really so P**sed about this judgement that they're willing to take it out on their customers? OK, I'm just a lowly Silver, but I haven't dropped lower than Silver in 5 years, so it's not like I'm a one-flighter with them. Even if I were, however, I don't think this is acceptable.
Just wondered if anyone else is having similar issues?
__________________
Not all J is created equal... BA vs AY
With the recent ECJ decision, I wrote to them last month explaining that I now want my 600EUR compensation which I'm legally entitled to.
They wrote back today saying that I am indeed entitled to the compensation, and that I should provide my bank details for the transfer. They also said that they have taken the 30k miles which were provided "in lieu of compensation" from my account. I checked, and they really have gone! Wow.
I've told them that they have no right to deduct the miles and I'll happily take them to court for the reimbursement cost if they don't go back in immediately; but just wow, Emirates. Are they really so P**sed about this judgement that they're willing to take it out on their customers? OK, I'm just a lowly Silver, but I haven't dropped lower than Silver in 5 years, so it's not like I'm a one-flighter with them. Even if I were, however, I don't think this is acceptable.
Just wondered if anyone else is having similar issues?
So the airline gave you miles in compensation originally and once the ECJ ruling was handed down you wrote asking for the cash compnesation due.
Airline now offers you the cash and you object to them reversing the miles originally given in lieu of cash!
Programs: BA Gold, EY Gold, TK Elite, EK Silver, CX Gold, HH Gold, Cafe Nero Loyalty Card, Argos Gift Card
Posts: 1,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centipede100
So the airline gave you miles in compensation originally and once the ECJ ruling was handed down you wrote asking for the cash compnesation due.
Airline now offers you the cash and you object to them reversing the miles originally given in lieu of cash!
Having your cake and eating it comes to mind...!
At no point did they say the miles were given in lieu of EU261 compensation.
Plus the EU261 ruling was in place when I originally asked. The airline chose to ignore it whilst the "review" was taking place. Doesn't mean that they were entitled to do so. Now the ruling has been upheld, they are forced to comply.
Additionally, the original 30k miles included a 10k "refund" of the miles I was overcharged; why have they been taken again? Poor form.
I don't see this as unreasonable and I spoke to my solicitor this morning (for unrelated matters) and he agreed that as they were obliged to provide compensation in 2011 under EU261 but are only now doing so, any "goodwill gestures" for my additional complaints do not factor into their EU261 liability. A simple small claims case would wrap this up very quickly.
__________________
Not all J is created equal... BA vs AY
Well considering they gave the miles to him as a "gesture of goodwill", and they included miles that they had overcharged him, while they may be entitled to take the miles back, it does seem a bit harsh.
As stated, it was a "gesture of goodwill", citing the reason as the ECJ decision being "on hold". Therefore I would not expect it to be instead of any compensation he is legally due, and therefore them not to take the miles back if he asks for what he is due.
As I say, they may be entitled to take the miles back (I'm not sure whether they are or not), but even if they are, it does sound a bit off.
IMHO
Last edited by LE4603; Dec 14, 12 at 7:25 am..
Reason: typo
At no point did they say the miles were given in lieu of EU261 compensation.
Plus the EU261 ruling was in place when I originally asked. The airline chose to ignore it whilst the "review" was taking place. Doesn't mean that they were entitled to do so. Now the ruling has been upheld, they are forced to comply.
Additionally, the original 30k miles included a 10k "refund" of the miles I was overcharged; why have they been taken again? Poor form.
I don't see this as unreasonable and I spoke to my solicitor this morning (for unrelated matters) and he agreed that as they were obliged to provide compensation in 2011 under EU261 but are only now doing so, any "goodwill gestures" for my additional complaints do not factor into their EU261 liability. A simple small claims case would wrap this up very quickly.
Small claims for the miles? Try to take action against an emirati company! Haha good luck with that!
Still I dont think they should have taken the miles back!
Programs: BA Gold, EK Gold, FB Plat, LH Sen, IC Ambass, Marriott Gold, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 630
Poor behaviour on the part of EK.
However, it's a well known legal concept that you cannot recover for the same loss twice. If the miles were given as a gesture of goodwill then you can probably argue you were never compensated. If EK considered giving you miles was compensation then they should clearly say so and that would then probably preclude you from claiming the cash later.
Actually, if you were to buy 20,000 miles it would cost you 800USD which is about 600 EUR. It seems someone did their sums behind the scenes already.
Programs: BA Gold, EY Gold, TK Elite, EK Silver, CX Gold, HH Gold, Cafe Nero Loyalty Card, Argos Gift Card
Posts: 1,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkLHR
Poor behaviour on the part of EK.
However, it's a well known legal concept that you cannot recover for the same loss twice. If the miles were given as a gesture of goodwill then you can probably argue you were never compensated. If EK considered giving you miles was compensation then they should clearly say so and that would then probably preclude you from claiming the cash later.
Actually, if you were to buy 20,000 miles it would cost you 800USD which is about 600 EUR. It seems someone did their sums behind the scenes already.
Agreed, but I had a whole list of complaints about this trip, not least the fact that they refused to provide access to email which they were legally obliged to do. The email went through point-by-point either apologising for their actions, or explaining why they felt they were not to blame. The compensation issue was dealt with with a simple "you are not entitled to any compensation". The final paragraph then said something along the lines of "We realise we have failed to live up to the standard you expect from us (...) valued Skywards member (...) as a gesture of goodwill we have credited your account with 20,000 miles. We hope you accept them in the spirit they were intended."
Nothing about them being in lieu of compensation under EU261. Not that they can do this anyway. The monetary compensation values are clearly set out, and it states 600EUR; not "600EUR or a variable amount of miles the airline feels might equate to a similar monetary value."
__________________
Not all J is created equal... BA vs AY
When asked for compensation in accordance with EU regulations, they refused due to awaiting for an court ruling but instead offered 30K miles as a goodwill gesture ( of which 10k was repayment of an overcharge )
After the court judgement, person then went back and demanded compensation in accordance with EU regulations. The airline agreed but then rescinded their gesture which had previosuly been made
Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. The 1st compensation was given based on the airline not being prepared to pay out on delays. if the passenger had waited until the court ruling to clamin compensation, the airline ( I am pretty sure ) would have paid out the compensation as required but would not have offered any additional miles
They also made the statement that the basis for the email was "you are not entitled to any compensation" and the gestures were made based on this. once it was accepted that there was entitlement for compensation, then the basis for the goodwill gesture was rescinded
Of course they did not state that it was in lieu of EU compensation since they had asserted that there was no EU compensation due
Sounds like a case of wanting to have ones cake and eat it
The exception I see is for the 10,000 miles which were overcharged . A call to skywards should be able to get any overcharge back without too much difficulty
For a claim at court, it is necessary to explain why the amount is owed; I would be surprised that when assessed on balance of probabilities that any ruling would not think that the 20k miles would not have been awarded if the EUR600 was paid
Last edited by Dave Noble; Dec 14, 12 at 1:18 pm..
Wozza2404, just go for it. As you said its very straight forward and doesnt cost much.
At best you will get the miles back and at the other best your going to annoy the people who need to deal with it at EK, kinda payback for the silver lounge debacle.
