I am surprised EK covered this one pretty well it did not get a lot of news coverage outside of Australia.D
It didn’t get a lot of coverage in Australia either. Ultimately it was a ‘near miss’ and there were no injuries (albeit the potential was there for it to be extremely serious). I can’t recall what else was happening that day but this was a minor story and other items took precedence in news coverage.
I dispute your suggestion that Emirates covered up or suppressed the news. Reports and images were available online, and the international agencies would have had access to the story. Emirates might possibly have been able to suppress the story in Dubai but it was widely available elsewhere if editorial staff believed it to be newsworthy
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomoreiphone
Another reason NOT to fly EK despite how great their in flight products are. No amount of shower can wash away this one
ATSB have not finalised their report and it is still speculation that pilot error was at fault. Feeding the correct data into the flight computer is obviously critical and I would assume a protocol exists where both pilots check this procedure has been done correctly?. If there is a demonstrated pattern of Emirates flight crews cutting corners and ignoring procedure I would be concerned but I am not aware that this is the case. I don’t see any reason to avoid Emirates on concerns of safety.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomoreiphone
I am surprised EK covered this one pretty well it did not get a lot of news coverage outside of Australia.
Another reason NOT to fly EK despite how great their in flight products are. No amount of shower can wash away this one
Well, SQ had their share of tailstrikes or wrongly chosen runways, QF landed on a golf course, and you can go on and on and on with mishaps on all other major carriers...
In relation to their large operations EK has one of the finest safety records in the industry.
For me, one single shower session on their A380 washes this incident away in five minutes...
Programs: EX-(f)Lying Blue (AFKL), and therefore now: TARP, P-PIP, TALF, EESA, FCRA
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Stop whining, keep flying...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomoreiphone
I am surprised EK covered this one pretty well it did not get a lot of news coverage outside of Australia.
Another reason NOT to fly EK despite how great their in flight products are. No amount of shower can wash away this one
Hey, come on... Nobody died. Move on. Nothing to see.
No need to overdo it.
Now, if you wanna see a real crash, go and check out AF/KLM's (f)Lying Blue : The whole program (including the relevant flyertalk-forum) seems to have died down right after 01 APR 2009, when AF/KLM drastically devalued any remaining FF-miles whilst making it virtually impossible to attain any future rewards and/or status.
You better believe it: Plenty of dead corpses and other casualties there(!!); in true honor to those onboard AF4590, AF358, KL4805,...
In other words: Hell (!!).
And they don't even have no showers on their planes.
THE pilot of the Emirates flight that nearly crashed at Melbourne Airport with 225 passengers on board had almost no sleep the previous day and was following the airline's orders to take off at reduced power to save money on fuel.
Several sources told the Sunday Herald Sun that Emirates - like many modern airlines - ordered its pilots to take off at reduced thrust when possible to cut fuel costs, emissions and wear on the aircraft.
The thrust or power settings are determined by factors such as aircraft weight, weather conditions, the surrounding terrain and runway length.
But an Emirates source said the March 20 flight - EK407 to Dubai - was set at the "absolute minimum" thrust, leaving little room for error.
"There was no margin for error," the source said.
"This is all about the money."
Emirates yesterday issued a statement saying safety was a top priority for the airline.
"Safety is at the forefront of all operations within the Emirates group," a spokeswoman said.
Sources said a report due on Thursday was expected to show the near-catastrophic accident happened after the incorrect weight was typed into the plane's computers, causing it to set an inadequate take-off speed.
Air safety investigators are examining Emirates' staff records, including the work rosters of some of its pilots, to see if there are systemic safety problems within the airline that could have contributed to the near disaster.
The Sunday Herald Sun learned that the pilot of the plane was also almost at the threshold of the number of hours he was legally able to fly.
Emirates pilots are permitted to fly a maximum 100 hours each 28 days.
Investigators are examining whether pilot fatigue was a factor after being told the pilot had barely slept the day before the flight.
Several sources confirmed that Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators were also looking at whether any other "human factors" needed to be addressed.
The inspection of Emirates' records is part of the bureau's investigation - expected to take up to a year - into the reasons behind the error.
The inquiry will investigate issues such as cockpit distractions and crew resource management.
A source said it was not possible for one person alone to commit the error.
"It happens because a range of things come together at the right time," the source said.
An Emirates source said the airline was in a risky situation because it did not have a culture that encouraged people to voice their safety concerns.
The source said some Emirates pilots were badly fatigued, but people were afraid to speak out.
"There is a limit to how far you can push people," the source said. "Those long-haul flights are really, really fatiguing and demanding.
"But a punitive culture means people are too afraid to speak out.
"Two things, (flight safety and the punitive culture) in my view, that do not match in 2009 and in a major airline.
"A very bad cocktail."
It can also be revealed that:
THE tail crashed into the runway with such force that passengers heard a loud scraping noise and some saw a heavy shower of sparks.
THE impact ripped a hole in the fuselage, causing what appeared to be smoke and dust to swirl into the cabin.
THE pilot made three announcements during the next 35 minutes as he circled Port Phillip Bay to dump fuel before returning to land.
NONE of the announcements told passengers how serious the situation was and the passengers were not in the "brace position" when the plane landed.
THE weight error was made before the plane left the departure gate.
PASSENGERS, including Anita and Ray Chappel, escaped uninjured after the plane landed safely.
The two pilots involved in the accident were forced to resign 48 hours after they were flown back to Dubai.
Safety Bureau and Civil Aviation Safety Authority officials are thought to be concerned about the action taken against the pilots, but have no jurisdiction to intervene.
Emirates pilots, using false names, have flooded the internet to express their concern about rostering, fatigue and the action taken against the two pilots.
The men are expatriates and at least one has since returned to his home country.
The United Arab Emirates does not allow unions, so more than 2000 Emirates pilots employed worldwide are not covered by a union.
Investigations by the Sunday Herald Sun further revealed the pilot was no stranger to the runways at Tullamarine, flying into Melbourne for almost five years, about once every two months.
The pilots - two operating pilots and two augmenting pilots - and 14 crew members returned to their hotel in Melbourne immediately after the accident.
The next day, bureau investigators came to the hotel to conduct interviews.
The man leading the inquiry is investigator Paul Ballard.
Emirates is sending some of its senior managers to Australia to handle the fall-out from Thursday's release of the preliminary report.
Andrew Parker, an Australian now based in Dubai as Emirates' senior vice-president of public, government and environmental affairs, will arrive in Australia this week with Capt Alan Stealey, Emirates' divisional senior vice-president of flight operations.
Emirates declined to comment on the March 20 accident because of the bureau's investigation.
But the company said it had continuously reached international safety standards and had been a founding member of the Gulf Flight Safety Committee - a Middle East aviation body.
The company denied it had a punitive culture that discouraged open discussion about safety concerns.
"Emirates has a positive and open safety reporting culture that helps management understand safety issues before they become significant concerns," a spokeswoman said.
The company would not answer direct questions about reduced-thrust take-offs, the fate of the pilots and the future of the damaged aircraft.
Interesting information. I'm not that found of the Herald's reporting specially of that 'Emirates source'. Most of the article is assumptions/suggestions made to read like a fact. But it appears to me like a good old human error.
The wording made me feel someone is trying to put a hole in Emirates reputation.
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Going back to the article, the closest thing to reporting was the 'like many modern airlines' sentence.
The whole incident boils down to data entry which can come from erroneous information supplied to the pilots and/or fatigue.
I cannot see a reason to lambaste the airline (with tens of thousands of employees) nor a whole country for such an incident. 'Like many modern airlines' incidents occur.
Going back to the article, the closest thing to reporting was the 'like many modern airlines' sentence.
The whole incident boils down to data entry which can come from erroneous information supplied to the pilots and/or fatigue.
I cannot see a reason to lambaste the airline (with tens of thousands of employees) nor a whole country for such an incident. 'Like many modern airlines' incidents occur.
What an understatement
The culture of EK described in the article is just bad.
My understanding is, that take off with reduced thrust is performed by every airline every day. Not to save fuel, but to minimize the wear of the engines.
A safe procedure, as long as you have the correct data in your board computer...
My understanding is, that take off with reduced thrust is performed by every airline every day. Not to save fuel, but to minimize the wear of the engines.
A safe procedure, as long as you have the correct data in your board computer...
That is correct. Depending on the runway lenght, aircraft weight, wind, temperature, and obstacles after deprature, a computer will calculate an optimal takeoff speed and an 'assumed temperature' that's higher than actual. This will reduce the engine thrust accordingly.
This practice significantly reduces the chances of an engine failure, and extends engine life.
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poked the pooch
The simple truth is the two pilots made a major mistake.
The weight of the aircraft is checked by both pilots upon entry into the FMS. I am sure the pilots who made the mistake will never forget it for it almost cost them and there charges their lives.
Modern airlines all use FLEX or reduced thrust on take off on larger modern commercial airliners from the 737 to an a380. The trust settings are set by the manufacturer based on weight, altitude, runway gradient and temperature. Emirates does not dictate the takeoff settings, it is the manufacturer that does that. There is no minimum or maximum setting dictated by airline policy.
When a journalist sites: “unnamed sources”, it allows the author to voice an unimpeachable opinion, and should be taken for what is: an opinion not rendered from the top of ones anatomy...
In my humble opinion I feel that the article in the Australian journal was slanted against the airline and painted the pilots as victims.
The longer segments that Emirates pilots fly should be less fatiguing than a Southwest Airline pilot that flies his 85-90 hrs a month in 45 minutes segments over a 12 hr. period than a pilot that flies DXB-SYD in an 11.5 hr. segment. When I first read the article I thought it was from a labour publication, not an aviation article. Much journalism about aviation is in sensationalism written by authors with no grasp of the facts and little aviation background. (Perhaps I fall into that category also, but my experience does include being a licensed commercial pilot) However I hold no claim to having superior insights or opinions. That said:
I do not think Emirates should be trashed because it is a successful carrier, has no union, is growing, and dwells in the Middle East.
(One only has to look at Singapore Airlines to see a much more despotic attitude towards its pilots. And a repressive safety culture)
Is Emirates my favorite airline: NO. But I still fly with them frequently.
I do not believe they have safety issues. The pilots of Emirates are well trained professional pilots.
The data entry mistake will not be forgotten by the two pilots. I feel for them. Their mistake could have been a disaster, no one knows that better than they do.
I do not think that journalistic blather should turn them into victims.
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