Dilemma in Israel: Freeze Settlements, Fly over arab states.
WITHOUT OPENING THIS TO A POLITICAL DEBATE!!!!!!!
The US offered its promise that if Israel decides to Freeze settlement building in the west bank, they will get approval from Arab states to allow Israeli a/c to fly over them.
Currently LY needs to fly south to Eilat and around Saudi Arabia or they head out to the Mediterranean and over Turkey, to get to the Far East. Allowing the a/c to fly over the Arab countries will shorten the trip by 3 - 3.5 hours and lower the costs.
The US offered its promise that if Israel decides to Freeze settlement building in the west bank, they will get approval from Arab states to allow Israeli a/c to fly over them.
Currently LY needs to fly south to Eilat and around Saudi Arabia or they head out to the Mediterranean and over Turkey, to get to the Far East. Allowing the a/c to fly over the Arab countries will shorten the trip by 3 - 3.5 hours and lower the costs.
Sounds like an interesting offer!!!
I think the settlers and their support will have something to say about that. Israelis in that part of the political spectrum are not the sort to harbour dreams of digging into a bowl of tom yam gai or having dim sum high tea with a view of the Hong Kong skyline, so why would they care if LY takes longer to reach the Far East?
Besides, isn't one of the reasons why many Israelis (and a fair number of Diaspora Jews too) fly LY is because LY does not overfly Arab countries? Would Elbit or Rafael allow their techies to overfly Arab countries? Mind you, I don't think the Gulf Arab countries are a security threat to Israel in that sort of way, so I don't think that overflying the GCC states and Yemen is as problematic as say overflying Syria, Lebanon, or Iran.
First, this will never happen. Second, what will LY do if they have a mechanical problem on the way? Land in Jeddah or Isfahan?
Presumably LY flights wouldn't venture too far into KSA or Iran, and would always have a "friendly" airport a reasonable distance away at all points along the route.
Where in the world did you get this? I've never heard of a "Diaspora Jew" choosing an airline based on whether it overflies Arab countries.
Not an airline, but flights, yes.
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Originally Posted by ttjoseph
Presumably LY flights wouldn't venture too far into KSA or Iran, and would always have a "friendly" airport a reasonable distance away at all points along the route.
I'm guessing they'd fly over Jordan, Iraq down to the Gulf and then onwards if going to India or Thailand.
Heading to Northeast Asia they'd likely fly Jordan, Iraq, Turkey and then the route they take currently.
In any event we are unlikely to see this anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by yosithezet
Not an airline, but flights, yes.
Well, that's news to me. I assume the OP meant by "Diaspora Jews," non-Israeli Jews. I can only go by my personal experience of friends, family, acquaintances, and, of course, what I've read over the last half century, but I've never heard of this even mentioned.
Well, that's news to me. I assume the OP meant by "Diaspora Jews," non-Israeli Jews. I can only go by my personal experience of friends, family, acquaintances, and, of course, what I've read over the last half century, but I've never heard of this even mentioned.
We are both from the same country and have had different experiences.
Fair enough.
I am an American Jew who is very involved in politics. I have never heard of someone checking what countries the plane flies over. I do feel that the stereotype re: Jews who live in 'settlements" is incorrect. I have many friends there and they have visited the Far East. The two are not related.
I am an American Jew who is very involved in politics. I have never heard of someone checking what countries the plane flies over. I do feel that the stereotype re: Jews who live in 'settlements" is incorrect. I have many friends there and they have visited the Far East. The two are not related.
IMO, it is far more plausible and understandable for a Jewish person to be concerned about what countries their flight overflies than for him/her to "boycott" LH or German products. If I was Jewish or Israeli, I'm sure I'd want to know if my flight might be diverted to say Beirut in case of a mechanical.
Since LY is one airline that one can be sure that it won't be overflying Arab territory, it's fair to say that it will be the airline choice of anyone (non-Jews included) who has such concerns, at least for flights that fly in the general direction of Arab territory. Besides, for the observant amongst such Jewish passengers, there's the added bonus also no worries about quality of kashrut.
You are right that my description about settlement Jews not wanting to travel to relatively 'different' places is a stereotype (even young hip Eilat residents apparently can't tolerate an Asian environment for long ). But in my short life I have come to realise that there is a grain of truth at least behind many stereotypes. Someone might have said once - the best lies are born from (a bit of) truth. As an ethnic Chinese, I could point to a few racial stereotypes about my race and culture that at least have a grain of truth to it - and I don't think there's such a real phrase or equivalent as "self-hating Chinese" (epithets like "banana" or in Singlish slang "kantang" don't have the venom of "self-hating").
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybhoy
IMO, it is far more plausible and understandable for a Jewish person to be concerned about what countries their flight overflies than for him/her to "boycott" LH or German products. If I was Jewish or Israeli, I'm sure I'd want to know if my flight might be diverted to say Beirut in case of a mechanical.
Oh, for crying out loud. Where are you getting this nonsense? I don't know anyone who boycotts German products (though I knew a few people in my parents' generation who did), and I certainly can conceive of why it would be a concern if a flight was diverted to ANY country. Rather than projecting this paranoia on people who don't have it, why don't you limit yourself to your own experience.
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As an ethnic Chinese, I could point to a few racial stereotypes about my race and culture that at least have a grain of truth to it - and I don't think there's such a real phrase or equivalent as "self-hating Chinese" (epithets like "banana" or in Singlish slang "kantang" don't have the venom of "self-hating").
I've heard that term applied to Jews. My wife is ethnic Chinese, I know China very well and have been going there regularly for many years. I'd be hard-pressed to think of what racial stereotypes to which you're referring.
Again, rather than imagining what people you don't know think, either stick to what you do know or simply ask.
Oh, for crying out loud. Where are you getting this nonsense? I don't know anyone who boycotts German products (though I knew a few people in my parents' generation who did), and I certainly can conceive of why it would be a concern if a flight was diverted to ANY country. Rather than projecting this paranoia on people who don't have it, why don't you limit yourself to your own experience.
I've heard that term applied to Jews. My wife is ethnic Chinese, I know China very well and have been going there regularly for many years. I'd be hard-pressed to think of what racial stereotypes to which you're referring.
Again, rather than imagining what people you don't know think, either stick to what you do know or simply ask.
Ok I'm going by anecdotal evidence. When someone claiming a Jewish heritage writes or says I don't travel on LH or buy Mercedes Benz or visit Germany because they killed my family during WW2 or whatever, or I don't shoot German weapons because German guns killed my family etc., so I take that at face value. What am I going to do? Say "You're lying"?
Point is there are people who say this sort of thing. Using a non-Jewish example, I remember even (overseas) Chinese of my generation who would sometimes describe the use of sexual escorts in Japan as "替南京大屠杀报仇" or taking revenge for the Nanjing Massacre. Yes, it was mostly in jest (and not a good one either) but not entirely.
Do many Jews think this way about German products? Of course not. Certainly most Israelis don't. Hell, the nascent Palmach/IDF used surplus Messerschmitts in 1948. Israel bought US tanks from West German stocks in the 1960s. The IDF currently uses German-designed subs. And btw, just because someone boycotts the products of a certain country doesn't mean he/she can't be civil or cordial to a person from that country.
If you think a diversion to BEY is no more a concern to an Israeli or a Jew than a diversion to MIA, well good for you, you're the better man . As for my paranoia, how would you then characterise questions by TLV airport security such as "Why are you studying Arabic?" (when Arabic is the second official language of the State of Israel and the language of the region) or "Why were you living in Saudi Arabia?" (when said country is a major oil producer and the largest market in the Gulf). Good thing I'm leaving Israel at the end of the month or I could really go sabra by end of the year . Anyway, even paranoiacs have enemies and given the regional context, perfectly understandable.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybhoy
Ok I'm going by anecdotal evidence. When someone claiming a Jewish heritage writes or says I don't travel on LH or buy Mercedes Benz or visit Germany because they killed my family during WW2 or whatever, or I don't shoot German weapons because German guns killed my family etc., so I take that at face value. What am I going to do? Say "You're lying"?
No, you're supposed to realize that one person with Jewish heritage doesn't speak for all people with Jewish heritage, any more than one person with Chinese heritage speaks for all persons with Chinese heritage. Anecdotal evidence is a problem when you extrapolate from the specific to the general.
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Point is there are people who say this sort of thing.
And you think that is typical of those with Jewish heritage?
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Using a non-Jewish example, I remember even (overseas) Chinese of my generation who would sometimes describe the use of sexual escorts in Japan as "替南京大屠杀报仇" or taking revenge for the Nanjing Massacre. Yes, it was mostly in jest (and not a good one either) but not entirely.
The analogy isn't apt for a number of reasons, not the least of which is, whereas Germany has acknowledged, apologized and atoned, to this day Japan will not even admit that the Nanjing massacre took place.
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Do many Jews think this way about German products? Of course not. Certainly most Israelis don't. Hell, the nascent Palmach/IDF used surplus Messerschmitts in 1948. Israel bought US tanks from West German stocks in the 1960s. The IDF currently uses German-designed subs. And btw, just because someone boycotts the products of a certain country doesn't mean he/she can't be civil or cordial to a person from that country.
Who said otherwise?
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If you think a diversion to BEY is no more a concern to an Israeli or a Jew than a diversion to MIA, well good for you, you're the better man .
This has nothing to do with who is the better man. I'm a person of Jewish heritage and I don't a diversion to BEY is a concern for me. And I don't like being told by someone else that I do.
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As for my paranoia, how would you then characterise questions by TLV airport security such as "Why are you studying Arabic?" (when Arabic is the second official language of the State of Israel and the language of the region) or "Why were you living in Saudi Arabia?" (when said country is a major oil producer and the largest market in the Gulf).
Because most of the Arab states consider themselves at war with Israel. I am not, however, an Israeli.
). But in my short life I have come to realise that there is a grain of truth at least behind many stereotypes. Someone might have said once - the best lies are born from (a bit of) truth. As an ethnic Chinese, I could point to a few racial stereotypes about my race and culture that at least have a grain of truth to it - and I don't think there's such a real phrase or equivalent as "self-hating Chinese" (epithets like "banana" or in Singlish slang "kantang" don't have the venom of "self-hating").
. As for my paranoia, how would you then characterise questions by TLV airport security such as "Why are you studying Arabic?" (when Arabic is the second official language of the State of Israel and the language of the region) or "Why were you living in Saudi Arabia?" (when said country is a major oil producer and the largest market in the Gulf). Good thing I'm leaving Israel at the end of the month or I could really go sabra by end of the year 
