She Was Asked to Switch Seats. Now She's Charging El Al With Sexism
Mar 6, 2016, 7:38 am
#46
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,042
This is major generalization of ultra Orthodox, not to mention that it's a stretch to say they expect women to be removed.
Much closer to accuracy, they don't want to sit next to a woman, even if it moves they move or get booted to Y.
I've even seen one get off a plane. Fine, his choice.
Much closer to accuracy, they don't want to sit next to a woman, even if it moves they move or get booted to Y.
I've even seen one get off a plane. Fine, his choice.
Mar 6, 2016, 7:43 am
#47
Join Date: Feb 2005
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That is how it should be, the man recognizing it is his own responsibility to move. But it is true in the religions and cultures that separate men and women, the woman's position is secondary to the man. In fact, it hasn't been so long ago that Christian marriage ceremonies still said "love, honor and OBEY."
Orthodox Judaism prefers the sexes to be separate. However, women are not regarded as being secondary to men, nor does the Jewish wedding ceremony oblige the woman to commit herself to obey her husband.
Mar 7, 2016, 3:14 am
#48
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel/United States
Posts: 1,234
As an Orthodox women ( by no means Ultra Orthodox) I am finding that many of these comments are not only untrue, but inappropriate.
As a women I do not view myself as a second class citizen. My role in life is different, but not any less important than that of a man. ( and I am NOT referring to child bearing) The reasons for certain male obligations and female exclusions from same are beyond the scope of this forum. What is bothering me is that people are comfortable making broad overall statements about the ultra Orthodox that they would never dream of making about any other group!
As a women I do not view myself as a second class citizen. My role in life is different, but not any less important than that of a man. ( and I am NOT referring to child bearing) The reasons for certain male obligations and female exclusions from same are beyond the scope of this forum. What is bothering me is that people are comfortable making broad overall statements about the ultra Orthodox that they would never dream of making about any other group!
Mar 7, 2016, 5:55 am
#49
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,042
I apologize to those I offended. Putting myself in the position of sitting on a plane and being asked to move because a religious man didn't want to sit by me because I am a woman, I would be both offended and hurt. The thought of it has made me kind of huffy in my comments. It is hard for me to understand how this religious belief does not put women in a second class position and I am sincere in asking for more information how this can be so. I learn a lot on Flyertalk.
Mar 7, 2016, 8:36 am
#50
Moderator, El Al and Marriott Bonvoy, FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Moderator Note
Folks,
Let's get back to the topic of this specific incident and case. If you have comments about these specific individuals in the article, that is fine. Generalizations and characterization so beyond that are more the domain of OMNI P/R.
Thanks for the understanding and cooperation,
yosithezet
Moderator, EL AL Forum
Let's get back to the topic of this specific incident and case. If you have comments about these specific individuals in the article, that is fine. Generalizations and characterization so beyond that are more the domain of OMNI P/R.
Thanks for the understanding and cooperation,
yosithezet
Moderator, EL AL Forum
Mar 8, 2016, 11:32 am
#51
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York,NY USA
Posts: 1,481
Jun 21, 2017, 5:49 pm
#52
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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She prevailed.
Israeli Woman Who Sued El Al for Sexism Wins Landmark Ruling
Excerpt:
Excerpt:
But the court found that asking people to move because of their gender violated Israel’s anti-discrimination codes.
In discussions outside the courtroom, the two sides in the case agreed on a judgment proposed by the judge, declaring that it is forbidden for a crew member to ask a passenger to change seats at the request of another passenger based on gender. El Al agreed to tell its cabin staff in writing about the prohibition within 45 days, and to provide training in how to deal with such situations within six months.
Ms. Rabinowitz was awarded 6,500 shekels, or about $1,800, in compensation. Her lawyer originally asked for 50,000 shekels.
In discussions outside the courtroom, the two sides in the case agreed on a judgment proposed by the judge, declaring that it is forbidden for a crew member to ask a passenger to change seats at the request of another passenger based on gender. El Al agreed to tell its cabin staff in writing about the prohibition within 45 days, and to provide training in how to deal with such situations within six months.
Ms. Rabinowitz was awarded 6,500 shekels, or about $1,800, in compensation. Her lawyer originally asked for 50,000 shekels.
Jun 22, 2017, 2:41 am
#53
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Good for her! Wondering if she got her legal fees reimbursed as well. Will be interesting if all the ultra orthodox start flying foreign carriers now instead since they won't be able to play these games on LY.
Jun 22, 2017, 3:15 am
#54
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That said, I still think that LY should offer anyone the following choices (assuming space is available at time of booking):
1. The right to buy two tickets, with one being the middle seat in Y, and be guaranteed that the seating arrangements will be kept. (In Biz Class or FC, simply having two adjacent seats.)
2. If three people are traveling together in Y, they can buy their tickets jointly and be seated together.
It is always better for a business to make reasonable accommodations for its customers than to force them into uncomfortable situations.
Jun 22, 2017, 3:19 am
#55
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Jun 22, 2017, 3:47 am
#56
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
But that's already possible, all they have to do is pay the seat selection fee, assuming of course at the time of booking there are still 3 seats available together, why should this be given free for the ultra-orthodox?
Jun 22, 2017, 3:58 am
#57
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Other airlines allow you to buy an extra seat. Make it clear from the booking about this option, though I still don't believe it will solve everything. What if it's 3 seats and a woman has the other seat in the row, they'll still complain.
Jun 22, 2017, 6:07 am
#58
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Nowhere did I say it should be given to them for free. They should pay the normal prices however it should be exempt from the usual stipulation that the airline has the right to change your seat for whatever reason it wants.
Jun 22, 2017, 6:10 am
#59
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I know of no religious requirement for a man not to seated in the same row as a woman. The most Orthodox man can sit in a window seat, have an empty middle seat, and a woman sitting in the exit row. In fact, most women (and most men) are happy to learn that there is an empty seat next to them.
Jun 22, 2017, 6:21 am
#60
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
If I book a flight with 2 of my friends, I wouldn't want to be seated apart either.
Are LY that bad when it comes to actually keep the same seat from booking? (obviously I'm ignoring aircraft changes)