ultra-Orthodox Jewish pax refuse to sit next to women on El Al flight JFK-Tel Aviv
Sep 26, 2014, 3:32 pm
#16
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According to an article by one of the women on the plane, author Elana Sztokman, the flight left only 20 minutes late.
I supplied the answer to that question.
Sep 26, 2014, 6:32 pm
#17
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I was raised Jewish, FYI. Now an atheist. But I've said for years that there is extremism in every religion, and this is an example of that in Judaism. Thankfully, Jewish extremism doesn't seem to involve violence, but entitlement and arrogance are in full measure.
Regardless, such behavior is not to be tolerated. I suspect El Al will learn its lesson here and plan accordingly for the future. I seriously doubt that any American carrier would permit such behavior, and I am thankful for that fact.
Sep 26, 2014, 6:39 pm
#18
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I always thought El Al didn't take any .... from anyone. I surprised they were even delayed 20 minutes.
Sep 26, 2014, 6:55 pm
#19
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I find the whole cultural aspects quite interesting.
If this had been an American air carrier, the men would have been escorted off the plane and it would have left without them. End of story.
That El Al chose to try to reason with such people says something about the Israeli culture.
If this had been an American air carrier, the men would have been escorted off the plane and it would have left without them. End of story.
That El Al chose to try to reason with such people says something about the Israeli culture.
Sep 26, 2014, 7:12 pm
#20
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I find the whole cultural aspects quite interesting.
If this had been an American air carrier, the men would have been escorted off the plane and it would have left without them. End of story.
That El Al chose to try to reason with such people says something about the Israeli culture.
If this had been an American air carrier, the men would have been escorted off the plane and it would have left without them. End of story.
That El Al chose to try to reason with such people says something about the Israeli culture.
I think the El Al handling demonstrates the challenges that Israel experiences with its ultra-Orthodox community. Because El Al is the flag carrier for the Jewish state of Israel, I'm sure the respect for the religious issues entered into the discussion that allowed those passengers to remain on-board. Of course, El Al didn't want to infuriate a group of its citizens on the eve of a major Jewish holiday.
El Al probably should have a policy for its ultra-Orthodox passengers such that they are given a priority to choose seats together in the rear of the plane in such circumstances--in advance by calling the airline. The airline could then move other passengers forward, into presumably better seats. I'm not sure why the airline didn't try that approach in this case.
Sep 26, 2014, 7:37 pm
#21
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El Al probably should have a policy for its ultra-Orthodox passengers such that they are given a priority to choose seats together in the rear of the plane in such circumstances--in advance by calling the airline
Sep 26, 2014, 9:27 pm
#22
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This reminded me of the George Jessel joke about the annoying kid on the airplane.
After an hour of the kid running up and down the aisles, bumping into the flight attendants, making faces at the other passengers, Jessel grabs the kid by the arm and says: "Do us a favor, sonny. Play outside"
After an hour of the kid running up and down the aisles, bumping into the flight attendants, making faces at the other passengers, Jessel grabs the kid by the arm and says: "Do us a favor, sonny. Play outside"
Sep 26, 2014, 10:45 pm
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Sep 27, 2014, 12:15 am
#24
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Here are two articles about similar behavior from 2012:
Ultra-Orthodox Jews increasingly refuse to sit near women on El Al flights
Woman forced to sit in back of plane sues El Al
El Al passengers are noting a recent phenomenon involving clusters of ultra-Orthodox men approaching female passengers prior to take-off and requesting to switch seats, according to El Al customers and tour operators.
While the phenomenon of lone Haredi men approaching female passengers is not new, and has in fact gone on for years, large groups of Haredim - upwards of 15-20 people in some instances - are reportedly attempting to secure blocs of seats for themselves. Their persistence is causing consternation and friction, while setting off a host of logistical problems during the course of some flights, according to a number of sources interviewed by Haaretz.
<snip>
"There's a passive participation or outright acquiescence from El Al," alleges Mark Feldman, who heads the Jerusalem-based Ziontours. "Rather than defending the rights of the passengers, they are enabling this behavior to continue." Attempts at seat-switching usually occur during the hour preceding takeoff, and sometimes after, according to those interviewed by Haaretz. Some women who are approached oblige. Others refuse. Haredim have been observed enlisting the aid of flight attendants, who at times personally intervene to resolve these situations by asking women - and sometimes men - to switch seats.
<snip>
Seat-switching is particularly acute on longer El Al flights, say passengers and tour operators, as Haredim insist not only on a separation of the sexes, but also prefer to sit together in order to expedite the formation of a quorum for evening and morning prayers. Sitting together also allows Haredim to exclude from their field of vision films that they say offend their cultural and religious sensitivities, while also creating "distance" from passengers who consume non-kosher food that they bring onto the aircraft.
Passengers interviewed by Haaretz say the repercussions of seat-switching are felt almost immediately, and include delays before take-off incurred by passengers transferring luggage from one overhead compartment to another.
<snip>
"This would never happen on Continental, Lufthansa or Delta," stresses Feldman, a 30-year veteran of the industry who says he has fielded dozens of complaints from passengers related to the seat relocations over the last several months. "Other airlines would not tolerate this behavior," he says.
<snip>
While the phenomenon of lone Haredi men approaching female passengers is not new, and has in fact gone on for years, large groups of Haredim - upwards of 15-20 people in some instances - are reportedly attempting to secure blocs of seats for themselves. Their persistence is causing consternation and friction, while setting off a host of logistical problems during the course of some flights, according to a number of sources interviewed by Haaretz.
<snip>
"There's a passive participation or outright acquiescence from El Al," alleges Mark Feldman, who heads the Jerusalem-based Ziontours. "Rather than defending the rights of the passengers, they are enabling this behavior to continue." Attempts at seat-switching usually occur during the hour preceding takeoff, and sometimes after, according to those interviewed by Haaretz. Some women who are approached oblige. Others refuse. Haredim have been observed enlisting the aid of flight attendants, who at times personally intervene to resolve these situations by asking women - and sometimes men - to switch seats.
<snip>
Seat-switching is particularly acute on longer El Al flights, say passengers and tour operators, as Haredim insist not only on a separation of the sexes, but also prefer to sit together in order to expedite the formation of a quorum for evening and morning prayers. Sitting together also allows Haredim to exclude from their field of vision films that they say offend their cultural and religious sensitivities, while also creating "distance" from passengers who consume non-kosher food that they bring onto the aircraft.
Passengers interviewed by Haaretz say the repercussions of seat-switching are felt almost immediately, and include delays before take-off incurred by passengers transferring luggage from one overhead compartment to another.
<snip>
"This would never happen on Continental, Lufthansa or Delta," stresses Feldman, a 30-year veteran of the industry who says he has fielded dozens of complaints from passengers related to the seat relocations over the last several months. "Other airlines would not tolerate this behavior," he says.
<snip>
Woman forced to sit in back of plane sues El Al
An American Jewish woman, Debra Ryder, is demanding NIS 50,000 in compensation from El Al Israel Airlines Ltd. (TASE: ELAL) for allegedly switching her seat on a flight from the US, because haredi (ultra-orthodox) men refused to sit next to her. She claims that the flight steward moved her to a seat in the back of the plane, which did not meet her medical needs.
Ryder is seeking the compensation for emotional distress and gender discrimination.
<snip>
Ryder is seeking the compensation for emotional distress and gender discrimination.
<snip>
Sep 27, 2014, 6:10 am
#25
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a friend of mine had the same experience on an AF flight to Riyadh.
So the bottom line is.....
So the bottom line is.....
Sep 27, 2014, 7:19 am
#26
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If someone doesn't want someone sitting next to them on a plane, then pay for it by not flying, by flying on a private jet, or by buying a seat or two or three to fly that way.
Of course when a passenger making a fuss is already on board a plane, cabin crew may be more willing to accommodate pushy passengers than endure a longer delay to offload such passenger and his/her accompanying checked luggage.
Of course when a passenger making a fuss is already on board a plane, cabin crew may be more willing to accommodate pushy passengers than endure a longer delay to offload such passenger and his/her accompanying checked luggage.
Sep 27, 2014, 7:31 am
#27
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They should have no such policy. If the ultra orthodox would like to enjoy the modern convenience of air travel, then they can also enjoy the modern reality of gender equality.
Sep 27, 2014, 1:29 pm
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It's rare that FT gets to read only one side of an issue. The timing of this threa meant that by definition, no-one religious would reply.
Whilst the issue is unfortunate, the reporting is suspect. The fact that the plane didn't leave hours late, despite this being an easily verifiable fact, indicates that the article is exaggerated. These passengers would not have checked in online, nor bought seats as the article reports (LY sells basic seats in advance?) Coming onto the plane, there was likely a bit of disruption, due to personal preferences. I do not condone such behavior, but my religious tolerance allows for it, provided there is limited disruption for other people. As the plane landed on time, this would appear to be the case.
I think LY did the same thing any other airline would have done in this case. Any change in the 'ultra-Orthodox' view on the world will of necessity come from within. External media pressure will not do anything, least of all armchair pundits who do not understand complicated sociology.
Whilst the issue is unfortunate, the reporting is suspect. The fact that the plane didn't leave hours late, despite this being an easily verifiable fact, indicates that the article is exaggerated. These passengers would not have checked in online, nor bought seats as the article reports (LY sells basic seats in advance?) Coming onto the plane, there was likely a bit of disruption, due to personal preferences. I do not condone such behavior, but my religious tolerance allows for it, provided there is limited disruption for other people. As the plane landed on time, this would appear to be the case.
I think LY did the same thing any other airline would have done in this case. Any change in the 'ultra-Orthodox' view on the world will of necessity come from within. External media pressure will not do anything, least of all armchair pundits who do not understand complicated sociology.
Sep 27, 2014, 2:26 pm
#29
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I find the whole cultural aspects quite interesting.
If this had been an American air carrier, the men would have been escorted off the plane and it would have left without them. End of story.
That El Al chose to try to reason with such people says something about the Israeli culture.
If this had been an American air carrier, the men would have been escorted off the plane and it would have left without them. End of story.
That El Al chose to try to reason with such people says something about the Israeli culture.
This has NOTHING to do with Israeli culture.
I have been on 36 flights to and from Israel - 28 with El Al and 8 with Air Canada, all from either YUL or YYZ.
I have never seen anything like this. The most activity has been observant men standing during morning prayers.
Assuming El Al is a problem is also wrong. Maybe passenger demographics are different on flights out of the New York area.
However, I would suggest that certain individuals who are members of this religious sect obviously prefer to cause these problems when they are well aware of how one buys airline tickets and how seats are assigned. I have seen this behavior on buses, but those seats are easier to change.
I agree with other posters: if they did not want to sit next to women they could have either chartered their own flight, or paid to sit next to each other or paid for a row of seats for themselves.
As for equal opportunity nonsense, see CubaLibre's comment about AF to Riyadh
Sep 27, 2014, 4:28 pm
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