EL AL Maintenance, Mechanical and Mishaps
Dec 14, 2015, 4:29 pm
#91
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Israel
Programs: LY, BT
Posts: 126
Also, this is completely OT but it doubles down on the point about a certain lack of professionality and lack of relevance in the conclusions and recommendations of those guys. Full report here: http://aiai.mot.gov.il/REPORT/RAI_61-15.pdf
In May 2015 an Arkia ATR arriving from Eilat arrived for a visual approach on runway 12 in the night (standard procedure, happens all day, every day), but the crew didn't pay proper attention and lined up with runway 08 instead. When the captain and the tower realized the mistake, they didn't go around, but rather turned the a/c to line it up with runway 12.
For those without an aviation background - there is sth called a stabilized approach, which more or less means that you have your flaps, your gear, your engines configured the way you want them for landing, and are lined up with the centerline of the runway and at an appropriate height. Depending on the company, the aircraft, the airport and the weather this height can vary, however it is extremely critical and crucial for safe operation of the aircraft to respect these limitations and not continue an approach that has not been stabilized when reaching the required altitude/decision height. In that case there is only one choice - go around and try again. What happened here is that the crew continued the approach towards 12, and weren't stabilized until an altitude of 100ft, when they should have been at 500ft. This is a classic example of what is said to be very common with airlines in developing countries and is usually referred to as "unsafe operations".
Two interesting conclusions here - The AIAI mentions it as a problem in their conclusions, but however doesn't see it as a serious occurence. They even praise the crew and the tower for continuing the approach despite the wrong alignment. I am not a certified expert for aviation safety, but this is complete insanity. At the very least, they should have their wrists slapped. These regulations exist for a reason, and once you start ignoring approach DH's, it's a very slippery slope that leads straight to disaster.
The other one is, that no matter how hard you wanna hammer El Al for having former pilots as CEOs, I can tell you for a fact that back in Shkedys days El Al had an incident not even remotely as serious, and the guys responsible for it were let go for good as soon as the initial investigation showed they had been playing fast and loose with the relevant minima.
In May 2015 an Arkia ATR arriving from Eilat arrived for a visual approach on runway 12 in the night (standard procedure, happens all day, every day), but the crew didn't pay proper attention and lined up with runway 08 instead. When the captain and the tower realized the mistake, they didn't go around, but rather turned the a/c to line it up with runway 12.
For those without an aviation background - there is sth called a stabilized approach, which more or less means that you have your flaps, your gear, your engines configured the way you want them for landing, and are lined up with the centerline of the runway and at an appropriate height. Depending on the company, the aircraft, the airport and the weather this height can vary, however it is extremely critical and crucial for safe operation of the aircraft to respect these limitations and not continue an approach that has not been stabilized when reaching the required altitude/decision height. In that case there is only one choice - go around and try again. What happened here is that the crew continued the approach towards 12, and weren't stabilized until an altitude of 100ft, when they should have been at 500ft. This is a classic example of what is said to be very common with airlines in developing countries and is usually referred to as "unsafe operations".
Two interesting conclusions here - The AIAI mentions it as a problem in their conclusions, but however doesn't see it as a serious occurence. They even praise the crew and the tower for continuing the approach despite the wrong alignment. I am not a certified expert for aviation safety, but this is complete insanity. At the very least, they should have their wrists slapped. These regulations exist for a reason, and once you start ignoring approach DH's, it's a very slippery slope that leads straight to disaster.
The other one is, that no matter how hard you wanna hammer El Al for having former pilots as CEOs, I can tell you for a fact that back in Shkedys days El Al had an incident not even remotely as serious, and the guys responsible for it were let go for good as soon as the initial investigation showed they had been playing fast and loose with the relevant minima.
Dec 15, 2015, 3:28 am
#92
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: UA 1K/MM, EK Gold, CX Silver
Posts: 880
I too read the report. The incident is classified as a serious error by the crew, and there is certainly no acceptance of their decision to try and correct the error by aligning with the correct runway at a low altitude, breaking minimums and rules for a stabilized approach.
The report does say that this was done with good visibility, without excessive bank, and with full situational awareness, somewhat mitigating the risk and the severity.
How LY chooses to implement the recommendations is a different matter. They clearly broke many rules and procedures by not aborting the approach, but it appears they didn't take a huge risk by doing so.
The report does say that this was done with good visibility, without excessive bank, and with full situational awareness, somewhat mitigating the risk and the severity.
How LY chooses to implement the recommendations is a different matter. They clearly broke many rules and procedures by not aborting the approach, but it appears they didn't take a huge risk by doing so.
Feb 10, 2016, 2:07 pm
#95
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: GVA
Programs: miles & more
Posts: 192
In a nutshell, these guys (LY) used someone to check and repair CFM engine blades who wasn't actually certified by CFM to do so.
"Also, the report holds a lot of critique and points for future improvement regarding the way the crew and El Al handled the aftermath of the incident."
This sounds scary. Who repaired the engine blades?
"However, there have also been some professional deficits in the final report that have sparked some serious discussion about their ability to reach relevant conclusions and recommendations. "
Does it mean that those investigating the incidents are not doing their activity properly....? Doesn't sound good, either.
"Also, the report holds a lot of critique and points for future improvement regarding the way the crew and El Al handled the aftermath of the incident."
This sounds scary. Who repaired the engine blades?
"However, there have also been some professional deficits in the final report that have sparked some serious discussion about their ability to reach relevant conclusions and recommendations. "
Does it mean that those investigating the incidents are not doing their activity properly....? Doesn't sound good, either.
Feb 19, 2016, 2:45 am
#96
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Zichron Yakov, Israel
Programs: SPG Gold
Posts: 808
El al flight from Amsterdam has taxiing accident
http://bit.ly/21cTJ2y
This mornings El al flight 338 from Amsterdam had a taxiing accident due to fog, and supposedly the wing has been damaged as per the above article on ynet.
Picture of the wing:
http://twitter.com/yosefbadichi/stat...421632/photo/1
This mornings El al flight 338 from Amsterdam had a taxiing accident due to fog, and supposedly the wing has been damaged as per the above article on ynet.
Picture of the wing:
http://twitter.com/yosefbadichi/stat...421632/photo/1
Last edited by nombody; Feb 19, 2016 at 2:53 am
Feb 22, 2016, 7:48 am
#97
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2005
Location: TLV/LHR
Programs: BA GGL, IHG Diamond Elite Amb, HH Diamond, Avis PC, Hertz PC, Sixt Platinum
Posts: 12,948
LY398 (MAD-TLV) goes tech last night, as does the replacement aircraft...
Apparently passengers left to sleep on the floor all night, until told aircraft can't be fixed and the replacement flown in from London went tech too!
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4769322,00.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4769322,00.html
Last edited by clubman; Feb 22, 2016 at 8:01 am
Mar 2, 2016, 7:06 am
#100
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2005
Location: TLV/LHR
Programs: BA GGL, IHG Diamond Elite Amb, HH Diamond, Avis PC, Hertz PC, Sixt Platinum
Posts: 12,948
UP flight from PRG to TLV landed in ATH following a technical issue with the aircraft.
Apparently the same aircraft had issues the day before and passengers were deplaned.
Aircraft is one of the the wet leased Privilege Style ones.
Apparently the same aircraft had issues the day before and passengers were deplaned.
Aircraft is one of the the wet leased Privilege Style ones.
Mar 30, 2016, 2:03 pm
#102
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Zichron Yakov, Israel
Programs: SPG Gold
Posts: 808
Fumes on board from the galley. Left athens after 4 hours and continued on to TLV.