gordo6

Unlike B-D6-9, gates E6-E9 will have 2 jetways per gate, allowing faster boarding and disembarkation. Each of these gate could be instead used as 2 stands for a narrow body aircraft...

J_Fleish

If tlv does add a380 gates i think it will just be 1 in case of the need for an emergency diversion and even then I do not see the need for an a380 gate I think it is smart for tlv to wait until the airlines ask for A380 gates then to go through a huge expense for gate that aircrafts does not even have service to airport and only 1 carrier that flies to tlv would that operates the A380 is Korean Air and I do not even see that happening. For an odd LH charter once in a blue moon they can stick to the 747-8 simple as their is no need with EUropean airlines frequencies for them to provide a A380 to Tel Aviv from Europe

NYTA

Looks like Liat has told LY management that we weren't fooled by the pitcher of prigat - it was gone this morning.

entropy

The trend in longhaul aircraft is overwhelmingly towards large twins. Super Jumbos like the 380 and the 748 are not big sellers. In large part because unless you can actually FILL those seats year round, they are less economical than a smaller twin. Many airlines are moving towards a "rather fill them up" than "lets have the biggest". 744's are being replaced by 77W's, with a similar seating capacity, more cargo capacity, and much lower CASM, not larger aircraft.

The only operators that for whom 380's make sense are those with an very large destination on one side, and a "universal" hub on the other. EK can make the 380 work because they focus on connecting traffic and connect such a huge and diverse set of cities.
(And lets not even start talking about the other ways that EK achieves better operating costs...)


I'm pretty sure that a 380 could "work" for JFK-TLV. I don't know that the same configuration could work well rotating into CDG and LHR (their other two biggest destinations) as I highly doubt that the C and F cabins could command the same demand and pricing as the TATL.

As for the ground works, I don't really know what they really need, a 2 level gate? They could deplane out of one if they had to. Not ideal. So the only real issue is if the tarmac can handle the weight. The 77W has a higher weight tarmac loading issue because it distributes its mass over fewer wheels.


And as for LH operating the 748 to TLV, the one time I know of was a publicity stunt, they've SCORE'd the operating flights to NEV NB's.

joshwex90

A380 could only operate JFK-TLV profitably if frequency was reduced, and that's not something that would work well.

Also, EK and SQ are quite different than many carriers who fly to TLV. US based airlines aren't getting the A380. The A380 works best for airlines who don't seem to have the same requirements of turning profits like others.

ELY001

This is exactly where EL AL needs an a/c like the A380. Deploying such an a/c on the route would enable a reduction in frequencies thereby lowering operating costs and increasing profits. It would also positively differentiate EL AL from the competition on this very vital route. In addition, LY could rotate the A380 to LHR, CDG, and BKK where there is demand. The reason why EL AL ever got the original 747's and then the 744's was because the loads of these routes justified such a large a/c and those loads have only increased since then as evidenced by multiple daily 744's to New York and frequent 744 deployments at LHR, CDG, and BKK.

Not ideal from a pax comfort perspective and an economic one because it would increase turn around times.

As far as the frequency argument goes, frequency is generally more important for routes that are shorter and span less time zones. It's also more important for "C" heavy rather than "Y" heavy routes. As we all know, TLV is not a "C" heavy route at this point. For USA-Israel flights you either depart in the afternoon or evening (the occasional LY AM flights during the peak season usually go out light). There is no need for EL AL to have have both multiple afternoon and multiple evening departures when you can have 1 A380 mid/late afternoon departure followed with an evening A380 departure. The operating costs will be greatly diminished and yields for this vital route will increase. Also, how many people flying between New York and Tel Aviv have actually chosen EL AL over UA, DL, or US because it has more frequency? All the flights depart within a few short hours of one another; with some being within minutes of one another. The vast majority of pax choose their carrier on this route based on price, the hard product, and frequent flier benefits.

With reports circulating that the A380 is being discounted by upwards of 50% this a/c would be the ideal replacement for EL AL's 744's as it would be cheaper to acquire than the 77W and would enable EL AL to increase yields without sacrificing capacity on the New York route, the main route the 744's are deployed on and the reason why EL AL even has that a/c type to begin with.

joshwex90

Where do you get that the A380 is cheaper than the 77W? The list price of the 77W is higher than the 50% discount of the A380, but do you honestly believe airlines don't get discounts when they buy planes, ESPECIALLY when an airline exclusively buys from one company...

ELY001

If you perform a simple google search you will see that Airbus has been discounting the A380 by 40-50% in recent years.

I never wrote anything one way or another about a belief as to whether airlines get discounts when they purchase aircraft.

The list price of a 777W is not higher than a discounted A380 at $200 million as you purport.

The New York Times notes:
"The A380 has a list price of $400 million, but the pressure has forced Airbus to cut prices as much as 50 percent"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/bu...a380.html?_r=0

This same article also points out that the 777 models range beyond $300 million.

Consequently, it would be logical reasoning to presume EL AL could get an A380 for around $200 million, and perhaps even a better deal than that (if EL AL management knows how to negotiate) given Airbus eagerness to sell to EL AL. So, why then should EL AL pay significantly more to acquire a smaller and perhaps a less economical long haul a/c from Boeing to replace the 744's when Airbus will likely sell them the A380 for cheaper and which they could easily deploy and positively differentiate themselves on the high density JFK, LHR, CDG, and BKK routes?

Since EL AL is a private company, it can and should purchase a/c from Airbus if the economics are right regardless of the fact that EL AL exclusively purchased from Boeing in the past.

joshwex90

Let's examine this.

I said: The list price for the Boeing 777-300ER is $330,000,000. The price for the Airbus A380-800 with the 50% discount is $207,200,000. So I am indeed correct when I say what I said.

Sources:

• Boeing: Jet Prices
• New Airbus aircraft list prices for 2014

This all came in response to your claim: To recap: You claimed the A380 is cheaper than the 77W. I said it's not. You then claim that I'm wrong for stating that the 77W is more expensive than the discounted A380 price (which was the only point that I agreed to you).

You really need to re-examine your very own posts. If the 77W list price is cheaper than the discounted A380, how on God's earth could the A380 EVER be cheaper than the 77W as you yourself claimed earlier?!

entropy

Only if Airbus was offering a much bigger discount than Boeing. And Boeing is also likely to offer huge discounts on the 748 just to ring up orders.

Obviously there would be another big mess with the crewing of the new aircraft as the pilots would have to train on a totally new type, rather than the 777, or 747 differences training.

People don't book away from 777s and 747s, but they do book away from LY's crappy F and C hard products.

joshwex90

Point is that if 77W list price is cheaper than the 50% discount on the A380 (which it's not,) then if the 77W was reduced in price, Airbus would have to give something around a 70% discount on the A380 to make it cheaper. That's not going to happen to LY who cannot guarantee high volume of Airbus orders in total, let alone of this specific aircraft.

Regardless, LY isn't ordering the A380 for more than just that. Ordering the A380 would mean needing to re-train whole new crews, a new maintenance center at TLV, etc. And it could affect future Boeing discounts for breaking the gentleman's agreement

ELY001

That's like telling a customer, if you go shop with our competitors (who have lower break even points and offer better discounts) we will no longer offer a discount (which still makes the final price for our product higher than that of our competitors). It's absolutely ridiculous. Competition, and not restrictive gentleman's agreements, is what drives prices down and increases innovation. The exact opposite would happen; Boeing would likely have to offer even steeper discounts to EL AL to remain competitive (which they do not have to be now) in order to prevent an Airbus order.

The fact of the matter is that Airbus would love nothing more than to get their flagship a/c in EL AL livery. They will do just about anything to break Boeing's monopoly with EL AL, including investing a considerable amount in training crews. Even though the EL AL order would be small, the symbolism for Airbus would be worth it, and the cost to Airbus would be negligible overall precisely because the order would be so small. In any event, EL AL would have to expend resources training its existing 744 crews on a new a/c type; those are unavoidable sunk costs, so why not exploit Airbus desire to break the Boeing monopoly to have those costs substantially reduced.

All of this makes the A380 the logical choice for a 744 replacement where EL AL is concerned.

joshwex90

You live in a dream world.

Boeing is cheaper than Airbus would be (when comparing A380 to its competitors). Your claim of the A380 to be cheaper is simply inaccurate
There are hundreds of things Airbus would like than to get their "flagship" in LY liver. (BTW, their "flagship" is about to become the A350. ) LY, even if they replaced their entire 744 fleet with A380s wouldn't match airlines like SQ, EK, EY, or even LH and BA. Why you think LY is even a blip on Airbus's radar is baffling at best, delusional more likely.

ELY001

I never claimed A380 would be more expensive for EL AL to acquire than the 77W or the 748-i. To the contrary, I claimed that with the high percentage discounts Airbus is selling the A380, that EL AL could get the A380 for cheaper than rival Boeing jets.

Can you name at least a dozen of those things Airbus would like more than to get their flagship A380 into LY livery? Never realized you were an insider at Airbus

We're talking about right now, not down the line.

You're needlessly injecting many issues again. This debate was never about whether EL AL's A380's would match those of other A380 operators.

Airbus has been trying to sell to EL AL for decades now. I suppose you just don't understand large duopoly business competition. Yes, EL AL is a small airline and Airbus would not be gaining much (if anything at all) financially by supplying EL AL with a/c however they would end a monopoly and add another formerly all Boeing airline to their list of customers. I believe it is flawed to think that given the above EL AL is "not even a blip on Airbus's radar."

Perhaps this relatively recent article may educate you as to how much of a blip EL AL is on Airbus's radar. Note the sentence "Airbus is keen to poach another of its rival's customers after last year's breakthrough deal to sell smaller jets to AMR Corp. , parent of American Airlines, a longtime Boeing customer." While you naively seem to believe Airbus wouldn't be interested in selling to EL AL because the order would be small and the profit would likely be non existent, the below linked article proves my point that for Airbus, it's not all about money; its about a win (by poaching a customer) in its global competition with Boeing. Sort of like during the Cold War when the US and Soviet Union scoured around the world trying to poach small and relatively insignificant nations from one another into their respective spears of orbit. They weren't doing it because those nations were important (in the global context) nor because they would reap significant financial benefit. In fact those nations cost the superpowers much more than what they were worth. They were doing it for prestige. This sort of competition is what Boeing and Airbus are engaged in today within the business context, and if EL AL's management knows how to play their cards right (which they almost never do) they can reap tremendous benefit for the airline by way of securing a much needed long haul fleet renewal at an unbelievably low price.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...52612947594688

joshwex90

• Made a typo and fixed it. So meant to say "cheaper."
• You actually did claim that the A380 would be more expensive. I said that the list price of the 77W is higher than the discounted price of the A380, and you argued with me, indicating you believe the A380 to actually be more expensive (which contradicted your earlier assertion)

This is one of the strangest things I've ever read. You claim to know what Airbus would love nothing more than, yet when confronted, you say that the criticism can't be real unless said person is an insider. Are you an Airbus insider? If so, I question why Airbus so desires the A380 in LY livery over anything else, such as getting more orders for the A380, getting any US airlines interested in the A380, etc. etc.

If you're NOT an insider, then I urge you to retract your comment as you seem to not know what you're talking about here.

No we're not. LY isn't buying the A380 today. By the time they would even consider such a thing - even with your logic, the A350 will be the flagship.

Not only does this REEK of the pot calling the kettle black, it's not even accurate. This was a DIRECT REFUTATION of your point that Airbus cares so deeply (if at all) about LY's orders. You say that Airbus would love nothing more than to get the A380 in LY livery. I say that considering Airbus's main A380 customers, even if Airbus does care about LY, they certainly have other airlines that they care about more.